Hey everybody! Please clear this up with some authority for my group. We've got two competing interpretations of the hide skill and we want it straightened out before moving on to the next campaign.
Here's the scenario:
A rogue is in the midst of combat in a brightly lit room. He ducks behind a table, granting him enough cover to attempt a hide check. Then, he slips out from behind the table at half speed and attempts to catch a bugbear flat-footed. Can he do so? Is he still considered to be hiding (in the sense of coming up on an enemy's blind spot), or is he seen, even without an opposed spot check, as soon as he comes from out behind cover?
We've gone round and round about this and just can't seem to find the real clarification we need in the rules to settle it once and for all.
Help?
Fleece66
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What is/was the bugbear doing? Is he fighting another party member?
From the Player's Handbook p. 76 -- "If people are observing you, even casually, you can't hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you're out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went. If your observers are momentarily distracted, though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast."
Technically, "flat-footed" (as I understand it) is the time before a character gets to their initiative.
In the example above, it looks to me like initiative has already started for the bugbear, so I don't see how he would be "flat-footed" However, it really is a moot point since the hiding character would essentially be "invisible" and therefore the bugbear would be denied their dex modifier.
Here is how I would rule it (based on the information given and how I interpret the rules).
If the bugbear is watching the rogue hide behind the table, the bugbear won't know where behind the table the rogue is, but he will know that the rogue is behind the table.
If the bugbear gets distracted for any reason (is currently in a fight, the rogue throws a rock and succeeds at a bluff check, etc.) the rogue can change his position up to a number of feet as he has ranks in Hide with a Hide check at a -10 penalty and the bugbear gets an opposed spot/search roll. I would probably rule that the rogue has to also make a Move Silently check (again at -10) to hide. If the rogue was successful in their hiding, I would allow them to continue the movement to get into a position to do the sneak attack. But if the bugbear is still actively searching for the rogue, I would still impose the -10 penalty.
At least that is how I interpret the rules.
Well, I don't have the rule books with me (I'm at work), but I'll try to explain it the way I understand it.
A character is flat-footed at the beginning of combat until his turn comes up. He is then no longer flat-footed for the remainder of the battle. So there's the importance of Improved Initiative for the rogue.
Your rogue using a potion of invisibility to disapear would cause his target to skip his Dexterity bonus when calculating his armor class against him, since he cannot see where the attack is comming from.
Hiding in the middle of a battle when the opponents are already aware of him is, as I would rule it, not possible. And even if he did roll a natural twenty on his hide roll, he still had to move out of his hiding place to reach his target, no?
If I was the rogue, I would concentrate on finding ways to flank opponents who are already in combat to get his d6 bonuses on damage.
Ultradan
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I'd allow it, but with a circumstance bonus for the Spot Hidden checks of the Rogue's enemies or a circumstance penalty for the Hide of the Rogue. The size of the circumstance bonus/penalty would depend on a DM call, but could be very large. Note:
It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.
In the case of a character who had been observed to sneak attack previously, I'd probably go pretty close to that -20. If the character could pop out from someplace other than where he was observed to disappear, I'd drop the penalty down accordingly. (For instance, if the character hid behind a table, then stayed in cover sneaking around the room and popped out opposite where he originally hid, I might allow no bonus/penalty at all if the opponent is occupied.)
Your scenario is pretty cut a dry and I will explain how the rules state it.
If you are trying to get a sneak attack a character is allowed a sneak attack when the target is denied its dex bonus.
A surprise round denies dex bonus and also the first round of combat before you act. After you have act you are considered to be involved in combat. A rogue attacking from concealment and has made a hide check opposed by the target if they have the option to notice them is considered hidden for the purpose of denying a dex bonus. Also is the case of cover such as behind a table and the rogue hides. He is hidden as long as he has places to hide for the purpose of cover or concealment. At any point in time he steps out of concealment or cover he is no longer concealed.
Lets take your example. Bob the rogue is fighting with his friends Fred the warrior Joe the sorcerer and Pam the cleric. All of them are fighting a ogre who is really made you made him spill his chili. Fred is "tanking" the creature taunting and hitting it with his metal stick thing (I think we call it a sword). Joe just cast daze on it and Pam is busy casting bless. Bob has been detected in combat since he was the person that made the chili get knocked over. So he runs away to hide behind the table. If you are being observed then you are technically unable to make a hide check unless you have hide in plain sight. Lets assume Fred uses Bluff on the Ogre and you jump behind a table there for granting you enough cover to hide. You have successfully hide from the Ogre. And as long as you remain behind cover (or out of line of sight) you have concealment from the Ogre therefore denying it the bonus if any to its dex. As soon as the rogue steps out from cover and there is not shadows or other things to hide behind you are not granted cover and there fore do not have concealment.
This is because in combat there is no facing and a character or NPC is considered to be constantly looking around his surroundings. So in your example if the rogue was out of LoS (Line of Sight) for whatever reason from the Ogre then yes, but if there Ogre has any form a LoS, then an opposed check is made. Again this assumes you do not have HIPS (Hide in Plain Sight) and also assumes there is not shadowy illumination which is enough to hide in. This is why lighting and objects in a room all come into play when planning out attack scenarios in 3.5 Hope this answers you question.
So to recapitulate; Los chili won't go to your Hips if you spill it under the table...
Ultradan
Can a character with Spring Attack who begins her turn hidden move up to a foe, attack him, then return to a position of hiding? Is she considered to be hiding (that is, invisible to the foe) when she makes the attack? What if the character has the camouflage or hide in plain sight class features?
Normally, a character can’t make a Hide check right after attacking a foe, since that foe’s attention is now focused on her (even if the attacker started her turn hidden or invisible). The sniping option (on page 76 in the Player’s Handbook) allows a character to make a move action to hide immediately after making a ranged attack against a foe at least 10 feet away, but this doesn’t apply to melee attacks (even those made with reach). Even if the character has Spring Attack, she simply can’t make a Hide check while she is being observed.
As far as your second question goes, unless the character’s approach remains entirely in an area where she can hide (that is, an area with sufficient cover or concealment to attempt a Hide check), the character is not considered to be hidden still when she makes the attack. Conceivably, your character might begin her turn hidden in overgrowth, move up through the undergrowth to attack a target, then move back to a hiding place within the plants, having never left the area of concealment. In this case, she’d be considered hidden when she made the attack, although she’d have a –20 penalty on her Hide check.
The third part of your question changes the situation entirely. Separately, both the camouflage and hide in plain sight class features make this tactic more useful, but together, they’re incredibly effective.
A character with the hide in plain sight class feature (described on page 48 in the Player’s Handbook) can make a Hide check even if she’s being observed. This doesn’t require any extra action to accomplish (unlike the sniping maneuver). The character could attack a foe, then move to a place with sufficient cover or concealment to allow a Hide check, making the Hide check as part of movement. The character doesn’t need Spring Attack to pull this off, although that feat would allow her to move (potentially from a place of hiding, although that’s not necessary), make an attack, and then move again to a place of hiding. Still, unless the character has cover or concealment for her approach, she’s not considered to be hidden when she delivers the attack.
The camouflage class feature (also on page 48 in the Player’s Handbook) allows the character to make a Hide check in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t provide cover or concealment. This means that the character could begin hidden, move up to a target across open terrain, and make an attack while still being considered hidden (although she’d still suffer the –20 penalty on her Hide check). Even if the character has Spring Attack and moves away after the attack, she can’t make a Hide check to hide after the attack.
Put all three of these elements together--such as in the hands of a high-level sneaky ranger--and here’s what you get:
1. The character begins his turn hidden (as long as he’s in natural terrain, he doesn’t even need cover or concealment).
2. He moves up to a foe across natural terrain and makes an attack (making a Hide check with a –20 penalty to be considered hiding when he attacks).
3. He then moves back from the foe and makes a new Hide check to disappear from view (again, he doesn’t need cover or concealment while in natural terrain).
4. The foe then, if still standing, says, “Hey, what hit me?!”