For the first time since I have become a DM (almost 11 years now) one of my PCs has taken the SCRYING spell. I see a lot of good possibilities and also a lot more chances that some PC curveballs will be thrown at yours truly. No problem, I am totally up for the challenge.
Just wondering what everyone's experience, both as a DM and a player, has been with the spell. At the moment the player (9th level bard) doesn't have the necessary material component - a large mirrror or reflective surface to cast the spell upon. I am planning on doing some good horror-related things once she starts using the spell, but this is seems like an opportunity to add all sorts of new elements to my game and I want some feedback/ideas from the "Lords of the Boards"
11 Years and no Scrying!?!?
Scrying is not only one of the most powerful spells in the game, it can bring a DM's plans to ruin. I ran a game a few years ago, homebrewed world and campaign, the players had met the villians and killed them. Only to find out that they were ressurrected later as the game proceeded. But the Wizard/rogue for some reason, at low levels, kept saying that he would cut pieces of hair off from the scalps of the defeated foes. I, not really paying attention that much to this odd behavior, asked him when he was level 9(3 rogue/6wiz, one level before SCRYING!!!) why he kept cutting hair off from defeated foes... he explained and I got really worried, the whole main plot thingy was finding out that the villains they defeated at low levels were resurrected by the evil clerics whom which they meet around level 14-15. And with 12 ranks gather info, help from a bard with even higher scores and obvious bardic knowledge, they would "know" the targets making it almost impossible for "my guys" to make thier saves...
Anways, it's a kickass spell in the hands of the right player. It can make the life of a DM hard, fun, but hard.
That's all well and good, but be sure that you're not weakening the ability too much. That's somewhat akin to stating that a wizard takes fire damage when using Delayed Blast Fireball just because it's a powerful spell. The DM's challenge is to find a way to adapt their adventures to the player's abilities.
I'm only cautioning you against this since it is your first time using the spell. You may in fact want to let the players get to use the spell normally for a while before throwing a wrench in the works.
(AoW SPOILER AHEAD)
You don't need a cursed mirror to make scrying dangerous. An intelligent foe can notice the scrying sensor with a high check. I can't seem to find the issue at the moment, but there is a scene in the AoW when Lashonna scries and a priest of Vecna notices the spell's sensor, spelling big trouble for the party. So, you don't have to go out of your way to make it a risky endeavor. Also, the baddies have numerous anti-scrying means available to them as well.
Saern,
Mesopotamian Demigod of Bathroom Decor
Likewise I agree with Saern. There's nothing that spoils gaining a new power like being worked over with it by the DM. Let them enjoy it for a while at least before you have your way with them. Often I love the scrying power because it gives me the opportunity to conduct "cutscenes" of interesting stuff going on for as long as the heroes need to eavesdrop. It shouldn't be happening too often since the object used is something akin to the size of a bedroom mirror or bowling ball. I'd have him figure out where he wants to keep it, but probably wouldn't have it be too portable. That way they can make plans to scry things, but need to make a shopping list until they get back to HQ--and consequently when they finally do scry it will be on a timetable more to your liking for one, and more importantly they will really be interested, as opposed to if they are left to do it on a whim. I have to say there is no investigations lubricant like a scry spell, but it will also cause hystronics on the part of the players if they don't have what they need to do the spell, so get ready for tons of "do we have enough to scry him? locate any object? detect person (or whateveritscalled)?"
Also be ready for some interesting questions, like you look over someone's shoulder and see what he's scrying or does it just look like water or crystal to those not casting the spell? Or does seeing the image give you enough sense of "where" it is to cast a teleport spell there? It's kindova' can of worms.
Personally I've always been of a mind to get rid of the spell alltogether in my campaigns and make scrying devices magic items that you need Use Magic Device to operate. That way on one hand people aren't getting them and having them be useless, and on the other hand people aren't going so crazy with scrying magic when they get it.
Just some thoughts.
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At high levels, it's likely that very wealthy or very powerful villains are going to take precautions against divination magic. This is a good way to prevent the players getting too much info on (at most) the person or persons at the center of your campaign. They may then have to focus their scrying efforts on minions or conspirators, which can give them some good information, but does not have the same impact as scrying on the main villain.
It's a technique best used very sparingly... save it for when your campaign really needs it, or else your players will get bent out of shape.
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If you think that the spell is going to be abused or your party's enemies learn about their ability to scry, look into equipping the baddies with cloaks of nondetection or, better yet, have one of the bad guy spellcasters throwing false vision all over the place. My favorite false vision was that the person the party was scrying on was meeting with a pair of assassins inside a cave not too far from where the players were. The players decided to teleport to this cave, not knowing that it was actually the lair of a powerful red dragon and that the REAL meeting was happening in a building just on the other side of town. I love evil spellcasters.
Remember that scrying doesn't let you hear what is happening, only see things. Also it has a Will save so the target is likely to know something is going on, intelligent people will probably know when they are scryed. If the target can find the sensor, it can be dispelled.
Since you can Teleport to a spot you have scryed, prepare yourself for the buff up the party, scry, teleport to bad guy and whoop his butt tactic.
Non-detection and False Image are both defenses but neither works very well. Non-detection is a caster level check - your players can just cast day after day until they succeed. False Vision costs 250gp each casting and doesn't last all day - your bad guys well have to cast it over and over.
As for the mirror being difficult to carry around, "bag of holding" solves that.
Note that the intelligence (real-life sense, not game stat) of the foe, the foe's in-game connections, and the DM's desire and idea of how hard they should be can all play a factor.
Once they realized they've been scryed on, they get smarter about countering it. They find stronger methods, place a spy on the party with some way of informing the baddy when the spell is being cast, and thus when False Vision should be used. The party likes to buff, scry, teleport, fight? Be prepared for the reverse from the baddies... particularly at night.
High level evil wizards are smart. Really smart. REALLY, FREAKING GENIUS LEVEL SMART. Simulacrums, mundane look alikes, and menial minions carry out their normal tasks, while they remain in their sanctum, with all it's alarm systems and where any attacker will surely fall. Clones are stashed here and there.
Anti-magic chambers can stop a scrying sensor, and there are other high level methods to counter it. There are plenty of ways that scrying can fail and even be dangerous for the caster without even leaving the PHB and DMG. It all comes down to the three factors above.
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Yes, but refresh my memory on the witch's crystal ball. I cant remember the specifics right now.Read Steven King's The Wizard in Glass?
I just remember her watching one lady who was a reeeeeeeal clean freak...
I think having a crystal ball for too long would turn anybody tweaky. You spend too much time watching people who think they are 100% alone, doing all the weird stuff they do,...
Don't forget about Mordenkainens Private Sanctum, talking about defenses against scrying, surely a powerful wizard has a room with a permanent such...
Thank you, Fatespinner. See, if I were a high level wizard, I would have thought of that.
When played properly, CR and level of opponents rarely matters; they can almost always present a lethal challenge that the party will never forget. I love it when the game takes a far less systematic, mechanical feel like that. It's not a matter of an 8th level party up against a 10th level wizard. It's the heroes vs. a powerful mage. If they're not careful, they'll fall right into his trap, from which there is no escape....
God, spellcasters are awesome!
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I looooove scrying. Great, great spell. However, in one of the more recent sourcebooks (Spell Compendium, probably?) there were a number of very unpleasant anti-scrying spells; I seem to recall that one of them teleported the scryer to the location of his target, while another cast attack spells back through the sensor. Ugly surprises...
Scrying can also be foiled by spending time in darkened or nondescript locations. After all, there is no way of telling where your target is if all you have for reference is a generic hayloft - or just darkness.
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High level evil wizards are smart. Really smart. REALLY, FREAKING GENIUS LEVEL SMART.One word: contingency.
"Whenever I am the target of a scrying spell, cast false vision with these parameters..."
I always have trouble with how contigency works, please explain. If I said "Whenever something invisible is within ___ feet of me cast See Invisibility." would that work? I don't get how the contingency can tell what is going on. How does it know that the incoming spell is a fireball and to cast protection from fire? Fireball is instantaneous how could it react quicker than that? How would it detect someone Scrying me? Does it perceive threats as I do or like some omniprescient (sp?) force?
FH
A contingency works on somethinig "that affects your person". An invisible person being near doesn't affect you, so no see invisible contingency.
A scry attempt has a will save so it seems like it affects you and could have a contingency tied to it. Can you cast contingency for a specific spell? That seems a stretch but I have no idea of the rules. I'd make the contingency be "when I make a will save", that's the effect.
Any other defenses against scrying? Those have been handy so far.
Could you scry on someone whose true identity was still a secret? Say, for instance, a serial killer whose dagger you found at a murder scene? Is that enough to cast the spell and discover their identity? Or do you need a lock of hair or something off of their actual body? And if, for instance, the dagger did not actually belong to the killer, but was planted by him as a red herring, would the scrying detect the dagger's original owner? or would it detect the killer since he was the last person in posession of it?
Well, it all depends on how powerful you as a DM think the spell is. According to rules it would be possible, but if, lets say the dagger, is owned by someone else than the murderer and the person who performs the scrying isnt specific enough scrying the dagger for clues would show the owner of the dagger rather than the murderer.
By being specific I mean when the person asks the question to the mirror, crystal ball, holy water etc... Atleast that's how I implemented the spell, kind of like "Mirror, mirror on the wall show the owner of this dagger/show me the murderer of Blabla who held this dagger".Something that is vaguely connected, like a stolen dagger, would be hard, we're talking +/- 0 and I'm assuming the person scrying in this case doesnt know the murderer making it even more difficult. It's a bit of a CSI spell! :P
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The sensor is not a fixed object, but it can only do one thing: follow the person being scryed. It follows at a speed of up to 150 ft. so it's pretty effective at following anyone who isn't employing some method of super speediness but you can't use it to look around. Kinda like one of those video games (like Sonic Adventures or Tomb Raider) where the camera is ALWAYS centered on the 'main character' except with scrying, there is no option to rotate the sensor around to view the surroundings. You only see a 10 foot radius around them.
As for other people noticing the sensor, I'm not 100% clear on this, but I believe if you look in the PHB under the description of either Spot or Spellcraft, one of those skills lists the DC needed to detect a scrying sensor.
As for your ideas about casting things through the scrying, you certainly can but the list is somewhat limited and there is only a certain percentage chance that the spell will actually work. There's a higher level spell called greater scrying that vastly improves the chances of these spells working normally and also allows a few spells to be cast through that normal scrying would not permit.
What's the D&D equivalent of redirecting to goatse?
Tub Troll?
One word: contingency.
"Whenever I am the target of a scrying spell, cast false vision with these parameters..."
What's the D&D equivalent of redirecting to goatse?
Tub Troll?
Holy crap that's funny. Maybe the tub troll in question has a brown pudding nearby?
Should I be glad that I have no idea what you're talking about?
Should I be glad that I have no idea what you're talking about?
Yes you should be. I had to scour both my eyes and my brain after seeing what I saw.