I could gush about my 2 favorite classes, the rogue and sorcerer respectively, but I was wondering what you guys thought about the Beguiler class. Would the combination of light armor, low bab, and casting in combat make him a speedbump for any charging melee? Would he just end up a liability or utility class, resented by the melee and magic users? Or is he the best of both classes? I was thinking about rolling a Beguiler at the very next opportunity and any thoughts or tips would be appreciated!
I could gush about my 2 favorite classes, the rogue and sorcerer respectively, but I was wondering what you guys thought about the Beguiler class. Would the combination of light armor, low bab, and casting in combat make him a speedbump for any charging melee? Would he just end up a liability or utility class, resented by the melee and magic users? Or is he the best of both classes? I was thinking about rolling a Beguiler at the very next opportunity and any thoughts or tips would be appreciated!
This is one of two classes from PHB2 that I am allowing into my homebrew. I like a lot about this class as it plays much like a varient Warmage. But how good it really is. Can't say myself until I see it in action. You could try rolling up a character and see if it looks good on paper.
I could gush about my 2 favorite classes, the rogue and sorcerer respectively, but I was wondering what you guys thought about the Beguiler class. Would the combination of light armor, low bab, and casting in combat make him a speedbump for any charging melee? Would he just end up a liability or utility class, resented by the melee and magic users? Or is he the best of both classes? I was thinking about rolling a Beguiler at the very next opportunity and any thoughts or tips would be appreciated!This is one of two classes from PHB2 that I am allowing into my homebrew. I like a lot about this class as it plays much like a varient Warmage. But how good it really is. Can't say myself until I see it in action. You could try rolling up a character and see if it looks good on paper.
If you don't mind, let us know if and how she ever plays... I've been wondering how the beguiler would handle the street.
You could try rolling up a character and see if it looks good on paper.
True. I don't currently own the PHB2 but i'll give it a little number crunching. Only problem is class features like stealth and spells tend not to be well represented on paper. Similar to the rogue, I'm sure any fight started by a Beguiler will give him the advantage. I'll checkout the PHB 2 New Classes thread.
Edit: Maybe i should just say "her" since it's a female pic.
Go forth and add your beguiler to the Stat Block Bank, for the more stat blocks, the merrier!
Go forth and add your beguiler to the Stat Block Bank, for the more stat blocks, the merrier!
Hmm you linked this before and i've loved it! Only now do i notice it's a user updated site similar to Wikipedia.
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I actually played a beguiler just a couple weeks ago in a two session game that my buddy ran(I think it was something out of the lords of madness, main enemy ended up being an aboleth). It was actually -alot- of fun, especially for the RP opportunities and whenever we were interacting with an NPC of anytime. I know that my character never went without a free meal(he 'confiscated' some apples at one point) or had to buy his own rounds(more then one bartender was left trying to figure out how he got talked into having drinks on the house).
The class really is something that I would enjoy playing start to finish, rather then just mid-level as I did(I think he's 8th level). The only real drawback is that you essentially take all the rogue flaws and double them. A rogue on its own is mobile and has a feat selection that can make it useful even when its backstab isn't effective. A beguiler talks and if you want to emphasize that your feat choices are probably going to be things to make your charm DC's higher or skill focuses and the like. This was really felt in that campaign when we fought an ooze. Obviously I wasn't going to hit it with any sort of enchantment spell or talk out way out of the fight and with very little combat ability to speak of it made things tough. Of course I suppose it was even worse just because my only weapons at the time would have split it had they landed a blow.
All in all I think its a very fun class, but it would have to be in a campaign that was right for it, one without much in the way of undead or constructs. But in alot of ways that is true for a number of classes. For instance we have a Warmage in a campaign that I am currently running. We had a mob scene where they were trying to stop a huge crowd of townspeople from rioting. The warmage threw out a couple zero level spells that did things like hinder vision and the like then when his next turn came up he looked at the other characters said 'Can I kill them?' when they said 'No' he declared he was holding his action. That was a situation a beguiler would have thrived in.
The further you move away from the more general classes the more common it becomes that your characters will need to be in specific situations to shine.
I'll be the nay-sayer here and say that I don't like it. I know it's like a warmage, and I've played beside one of these around 6th-10th level before, and it didn't seem unbalanced. And, I've not seen the beguiler in action, so I'm not sure how it will translate.
I've heard others say that it can just be pulled off with a combo of sorcerer, rogue, bard, and/or wizard in some fashion. Not quite; it gets some abilities that can't be duplicated.
However, I have to say that I think the spell casting may be a little overpowered. There was an ability or two that I didn't really think much of (unfortunately, I don't have my PHB II, so I can't say which one).
But the real reason I dislike them is that it seems, to me, to be stealing from sorcerers. The warmage was disparaged by most of my group for this very reason- the sorcerer previously held the "blaster" position in the party with security. They knew fewer spells than wizards, but with their ability to cast more per day, they were the best artillery around.
And then comes the warmage, pretty much stealing that from them. Sure, there are differences, and the sorcerer is far from being no-longer viable, but the fact is that the warmage is better at a blaster role than a sorcerer, which seems to fly in the face of some of the reason for the sorcerer class to begin with.
But, I was fine with it after a while, for the sorcerer had another advantage- while the "Heavy Artillery, 1st place" award may have passed to another, the sorcerer remained able to focus on some other spell-school and still excel at slinging around tons of those spells like no-one else could.
And then comes the Beguiler. It steals from the sorcerer the enchantment AND illusion school, just as the warmage stole evocation. And it raises the question to my mind, "Are they going to make one of these for every spell school?" Please, no. The sorcerer will have no place after that.
Now, I'm sure I'm going to get a reply along these lines: "How does giving a new class a special feature similar to another class's somehow steal something from said other class?"
By outstripping the previous class at what it was previously used for, everyone seeking to do that, to fill that role ("Blaster" or "Mindbender" for example) will take the new class, not the old one.
Most people want a concept of what their character does, and the sorcerer used to be the best for those two niches. Not anymore. Anyone seeking to fill those shoes is likely to go warmage or beguiler. What role does that leave the sorcerer to fill? They can mix the two roles together? Not enough spells known to do that effectively, says I! Wizard is better there, with their unlimited number of spells known and their ability to scribe scrolls to make up for small spell slots.
So, in summation to a long-winded rant, I dislike beguilers and warmages because they steal valued and core niches from the sorcerer, and I will always favor PHB classes over supplemental classes, even if they are from another PHB.
And then comes the Beguiler. It steals from the sorcerer the enchantment AND illusion school, just as the warmage stole evocation. And it raises the question to my mind, "Are they going to make one of these for every spell school?" Please, no. The sorcerer will have no place after that.
As far as I'm concerned, the sorcerer has no place in the game now. It never really did. It was a poorly designed class from the very beginning, and I'm glad the designers are correcting that mistake now by introducing classes like the beguiler.
However, I have to say that I think the spell casting may be a little overpowered. There was an ability or two that I didn't really think much of (unfortunately, I don't have my PHB II, so I can't say which one)....
And then comes the Beguiler. It steals from the sorcerer the enchantment AND illusion school, just as the warmage stole evocation. And it raises the question to my mind, "Are they going to make one of these for every spell school?" Please, no. The sorcerer will have no place after that.
It's fine if you don't like the Beguiler class. I'm creating a 6th lvl Beguiler NPC stat block right now. Unfortunately, for lack of a PHB2, I haven't taken a look at their class spell list yet. However, in defense of their "stealing" from the sorcerer, they get ONE new spell from the sorcerer enchantment OR evocation list at 4th level and every 3 levels after. That means not including bonus spells, my sample beguiler has only one new spell from that list. And i chose ventriloquism. I don't think we're gonna hurt any sorcerer's feelings with that.
Sorry if another arcane spellcasting class steps on your toes but wotc has to create more classes, skills, feats, etc...due to player demand. I feel like the Beguiler has much more impact as the sweet talker of the party, using diplomacy to get out of tight situations or as a spell casting scounting compliment to a rogue or ranger. Rest assured, I don't feel she'll take any spellcasting roles away from the PHB1 classes.
I know I've said this before, but I'll go ahead and give my two cents on the beguiler. I actually really like the concept. Their special abilities might need tweaking (never actually played one so I don't know) I like the idea of a class that shines in social situations. There are plenty of classes that revolve around combat and stealth, but few that are socially oriented. I've got plenty of resources to run combat encounters, but precious few for use in social situations. I would actually like to see more classes, like the beguiler, who can really show their stuff in a battle of words. Things like that open up options for me as a GM and a player and increase the range of the setting.
I'm one of these people that believes that the new classes beguiler, warmage, and dread necromancer are phasing out the sorcerer class bit by bit. Is this a good thing. I don't know. I personally think that sorcerers and wizards (less so) need to be updated to be more comparable to these new classes. Monte Cook in his Arcana Unearthed did this with his spellcasting classes.
The one thing that can make sorcerers shine once again is for WotC to take the sorcerer bloodlines thing in Dragon to heart and make it standard for the class. They should also give sorcerers the Eschew Components feat for free and up their Hit Dice to D6. Really, they aren't as cloistered as wizards and therefore should have more hit points.
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I'm going to agree with you on the HD upgrade, Phil, and haven't really made up my mind on Eschew Materials myself...
In my own campaign, which is phasing into Red Hand of Doom, I've dabbled with the beguiler for NPCs, and have found it fit a very specific role for me as a DM- the smooth-talker with "tricks" to back his words up.
In essence, I have found that the rogue is a superb social character, but at times have desired an NPC who isn't also capable of blackjacking an unsuspecting PC for 4d6 sneak attack damage- I wanted someone who needed to rely entirely on deception, with some tricky spells to pull them out of a jam.
In the end, I think the role is a toss-up between bard and beguiler, but with the former's focus on performance (and thus enhanced by being surrounded by allies), the beguiler is a good "solo NPC."
They do require some finessing though, as others have said, or at least some creative use of illusions when facing an undead or construct foe (no luck against oozes, really, but then I'd probably not try to take on the Hordes of Jubilex with a rogue either ;)).
Saern- I totally respect yoru view, and agree that Presige and Multiclassing can certainly fill the role- I just find that a Intelligence-based caster with social skills really tickles my fancy.
P.S. I think an unrevised Sorceror is in danger, but between D6 HD and the use of PHBII alternate feature (no familiar but gain the ability to apply metamagic feats w/o increased casting time), they could still hold their own, especially if they opt to stay versatile with their spell selection.
While revising Red Hand to my own needs, I had the choice of keeping sorceror villains or altering them to warmages. However , James Jacobs and Richard Baker had wisely granted them scrolls of fly, haste, and summon monster III, giving them a greater deal of flexibility and fucntion then a warmage or dread necromancer could have offered- neither of those classes can hide themselves with illusions or escape via conjuration, and that becomes a real balancing factor at the higher levels, where a sorceror with invisibility and dimension door/teleport can really make an impact in a fight/flight situation.