Demogorgon's CR?


Savage Tide Adventure Path

Liberty's Edge

I was wondering, what CR level is Demogorgon going to have in the Savage Tide; will it be more along the lines of the "demon lord lite" power level as presented in the FC I, or are you going to give him his vitamins and buff him up?
Please don't take this as a whine'n'gripe about the "demon lord lite" phenomenon, it doesn't bother me. If I personally wanted a CR 35 Demogorgon I think I could pull it off; just curious is all.


Well, they can't make him less tough than Dragotha or Kyuss, can they? That would seem like a step back for Dungeon. I think his CR will be more in line with his CR in BoVD (CR 32), but due to the PCs manipulation of events he will end up being weaker for the final confrontation (possibly reducinng his CR by 3-5 points). He'll certainly be tougher than his description/stats in FC1, but I'll guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

You'll have to wait till next year to find this out, alas. I can tell you this though; we'll be certain to make sure that the end of Savage Tide is properly challenging, whatever CR Demogorgon ends up being.

Liberty's Edge

A bit off-topic but as I see the chance of James answering here...

Red Hand of Doom:
James, don't you think the CR of the Greenspawn Razorfiend as a bit too low?
I DMed this encounter last session and my players almost got wiped out by just this single creature. Not only does his crit X3 make things worse, but together with his attacks and a spring attack this beast is really deadly...
It helped, to convince the party to stop the threat of having more of them join the Horde, but all in all I think CR7 is too low. CR9 seems more fitting for me... Any thoughts?

Sorry for kind of Hijacking this thread...


Apologies for also 'Hijacking', but I was not able to find any other threads with regards to the below issue:

Dryder wrote:
James, don't you think the CR of the Greenspawn Razorfiend as a bit too low?

I would have to say no in my presonal opinion. I ran the Marsh encounter with the Greenspawn on friday night, and it barely lasted two rounds, and that was taking into account that the party's melee duo (dwarf barbarian, and half-orc fighter) didn't even get to the creature (due to the difficult marshy terrain) before the other three PCs (a rogue, a wizard/cleric, and a sorcerer) killed it.

What I did want to ask is: What is the reach of the creature? Unlike most of the other stats, no specific base-size or reach was given, so I played it safe with a reach of 5ft, but was this right? Those razor-wings do seem quite long...

Liberty's Edge

I played the wings with reach 10' and made extensive use of spring attack together with jump.
My players had a really hard time getting to it to make melee damage...
Well, maybe just the dice rolled bad this day! ;)


Dryder wrote:
I played the wings with reach 10' and made extensive use of spring attack together with jump.

I think I'll also use the reach of 10ft, it seems to make sense.

Doesn't Spring Attack mean provoking a lot of AoO? It's why I rarely both with the feat as either GM or player.


llaletin wrote:
Dryder wrote:
I played the wings with reach 10' and made extensive use of spring attack together with jump.

I think I'll also use the reach of 10ft, it seems to make sense.

Doesn't Spring Attack mean provoking a lot of AoO? It's why I rarely both with the feat as either GM or player.

Don't know if I should post this, but it was left out of RHoD, and it probably should have been in there, so I'll risk it. In the Monster Manual IV a Greenspawn Razor Fiend has:

Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with bite)

As to Spring Attack provoking attacks of opportunity, it does, but not from the target of the spring attack. The tactic someone with Spring Attack will use is to pick off opponents who can be reached cleanly without provoking an AoO from other combatants. With reach on the bite attack, the Razorfiend might try to use a wing on a spring attack, and get an AoO on the first attacker to approach.

Liberty's Edge

Thanx for the info VanDenBeast! This helps much and clears up things. Still, I think the Greenspawn Razorfiend is a deadly opponent for a 7th level party!

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