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This situation came up in an online game I am running. I'd like to get your thoughts on it, please.
A cleric decided to leave a 2nd level slot open when praying for spells. Later in the day, she wanted to spontaniously cast a CMW, but had only her domain spell left and the empty slot. The situation was time critical so she tried to use the empty slot spontaniously to cast the CMW, but I ruled that the empty slot must first be filled with some kind of magical energy; simply leaving it open left it "unpowered/inert" and thus unavailable for spontanious casting.
Two of the party members disagreed with this call, and since I have time to correct my decision before resuming play, I am hoping to get a consensus from this community on whether or not empty divine slots can be used spontaniously without the need for the minimum 15 minute prep time needed to typically fill empty slots with divine (or arcane) power.
Thanks for your comments!
I am hoping to get a consensus from this community on whether or not empty divine slots can be used spontaniously without the need for the minimum 15 minute prep time needed to typically fill empty slots with divine (or arcane) power.
No, they cannot. From the "Spontaneous Casting" ability description:
"The cleric can 'lose' any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell..."
"For example, a good cleric who has prepared command (a 1st-level spell) may lose command in order to cast cure light wounds..."
"An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric of an evil deity), on the other hand, can't convert prepared spells to cure spells, but can convert them to inflict spells..."
The text is quite clear. Clerics convert prepared spells into spontaneous cure spells. No spell prepared? Nothing to convert.
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A cleric decided to leave a 2nd level slot open when praying for spells. Later in the day, she wanted to spontaniously cast a CMW, but had only her domain spell left and the empty slot. The situation was time critical so she tried to use the empty slot spontaniously to cast the CMW, but I ruled that the empty slot must first be filled with some kind of magical energy; simply leaving it open left it "unpowered/inert" and thus unavailable for spontanious casting.
It looks to me as though you aren't quite following RAW as regards cleric spell preparation:
Time of Day
A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells.
Clerics can't normally leave slots open, then fill them later. They must fill all slots at the same time when preparing spells or wait until the next day.
I don't mean this to say that you can't run your magic system differently, but since you were asking about rules using a very different understanding than mine of what the underlying rules say, I thought it useful to mention the difference.
Clerics can't normally leave slots open, then fill them later.
Sorry, Doug, but you're quite wrong.
I play a divine spellcaster and I generally leave a spell slot open. I'm concerned about whether I'm following the rules correctly. After reading the Player's Handbook, I have assumed that divine casters can leave slots open; although, they must still perform the daily prayer session to prepare any spells that day. However, I can understand the argument that all spells must be prepared at the daily prayer session, and no slots can be left open. Page 156 of the Player's Handbook says a divine caster's mind is considered fresh only during his first daily spell preparation, so he cannot fill a slot that is empty because he has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell. I'm a little confused by this statement.
A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once (see page 156 in the Player's Handbook). This means you can leave slots open.
The text you've quoted merely points out that you can replace spells you have cast or can switch prepared (but uncast) spells for other prepared spells when your mind is fresh (and only then). If you've left open slots, you can fill them in 15 minutes, even when your mind is not fresh. Arcane casters have the same rule (see page 154 of the Player's Handbook).
Why they didn't use (essentially) the same language for clerics as they did for wizards is beyond me. That would have been much clearer to everyone.
A cleric decided to leave a 2nd level slot open when praying for spells. Later in the day, she wanted to spontaniously cast a CMW, but had only her domain spell left and the empty slot. The situation was time critical so she tried to use the empty slot spontaniously to cast the CMW, but I ruled that the empty slot must first be filled with some kind of magical energy; simply leaving it open left it "unpowered/inert" and thus unavailable for spontanious casting.
Even if RAW rules that a good cleric can't use that one unprepared slot for a healing spell, I'd allow it as a DM. I think when the book says 'a cleric can loose any prepared slot to heal' that the writers didn't foresee this particular situation. The logic that you're using (that a cleric's unprepared slots are 'inert') seems very analytical and logical to me; when I think about divine spellcasting I don't think of it as logical or scientific the way I think arcane casting is. If you feel differently, well, you've got the RAW on your side but if this cleric hasn't run out of the spiritual energy to cast spells yet (spells/day), why would her god deny her the ability to do something that she can normally do at will?
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Clerics can't normally leave slots open, then fill them later.Sorry, Doug, but you're quite wrong.
I see your point. I'll note that the section you quoted is from the 3.0 FAQ, not the 3.5 FAQ. (I don't know whether the same text is in the 3.5 FAQ.) That said, the same language is in 3.5 on pages 179 and 180). As I see it, the bit on page 179 (that I quoted in my first reply) directly contradicts the bit in Spell Selection and Preparation.
In the first, the Cleric "chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells." (Emphasis mine.)
In the second, the cleric "does not have to prepare all his spells at once".
I have no idea why the conflict wasn't resolved in 3.5, since it seems that WotC knew it existed. I don't see a way to reconcile the text, so I guess it's up to the DM.
FWIW, I think I'll go with "If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells." (From the end of the "Time of Day" section.) I like the flavor better, and unlike errata, FAQ isn't dispositive. (No mention is made in the Feb. 17, 2006 errata. I haven't downloaded more recent errata.)
I have to agree that I was wrong to say that the OP wasn't going by RAW. It seems we both were (or neither of us was).
I have to agree that I was wrong to say that the OP wasn't going by RAW. It seems we both were (or neither of us was).
Nice try, Doug, but the RAW says clerics can leave slots empty and fill them in later. It says so unclearly, which is why the FAQ had to clarify the RAW, but Lich-Loved was going by the RAW and you weren't.
As always I will leave RAW worship to the egyptians and set sail with my own argument, powered by internal consistancy.
Spells per day is a measure of the faith that a god places in his (or her) cleric both in terms of power and number of miraculous effects (divine "spells") they may ask for in their daily prayers. If a slot is unfilled, the god still has trust in the cleric to tap into that degree of power an additional time, regardless of whether the cleric prayed for a spell of that level that day or not.
Now if you ask me, I'd say different gods might handle the whole "empty slot" thing differently. Gods that value their servants doing what they can on their own rather than using magic to solve all their problems might favor a few empty slots, as a sign that the cleric isn't pushing for every inch of power the god is willing to give them--but probably wouldn't look favorably on that cleric then taking 15 minutes aside to plead for a spell he didn't ask for earlier. Clerics of a chaotic ethos might encourage the most empty slots possible, so that their clerics are constantly beseeching them throughout the day and are open and flexible. Crusty, bureaucrat gods might see open slots as offensive end runs around the system and refuse to grant them out of hand.
I love flexible rules like these because they let you adapt the RAW to the individual needs of your campaign--which always makes your setting feel more alive and real than always taking the straight by-the-book answer.
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Thanks all for your input. I somehow missed the SRD's information on the subject (too many late nights recently I think) or I would not have posted at all.
I tend to view "modern" PC's (the word modern being equivelent to the PC + Complete Series books) as pretty powerful, so I took the view that they did not need one more avenue of flexibility in spontanious use of unprepared cleric spell slots. I also reread the SRD to make sure I understood what was (almost) being said therein and I went off to make my ruling a bit chagrinned that I didn't resolve the issue myself.
All was well until I read Grimcleaver's post and then re-read Tequila Sunrise's post. The more I think of it, the more I like the idea that some gods (maybe the lawful gods or the gods that stress preparedness) would require empty slots to be filled before conversion to healing spells could occur while gods of chaos may support or even encourage the cleric's lack of commitment. It is an intriguing idea at he very least and something I will take into consideration in the future.
And at the risk of a 25+ year player demonstrating his cluelessness, what is the RAW? I haven't seen the acronym until recently and do not know its meaning. Anyone care to enlighten me?
Thanks again for all your comments!
And at the risk of a 25+ year player demonstrating his cluelessness, what is the RAW?
Rules As Written.
The problem with claiming something is (or is not) "RAW," of course, is that the text is still subject to interpretation. Two people can read the exact same sentence/paragraph/whatever and arrive at different, but equally reasonable, conclusions as to what it actually means. (But that doesn't stop us from using the term.)
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Nice try, Doug, but the RAW says clerics can leave slots empty and fill them in later. It says so unclearly, which is why the FAQ had to clarify the RAW, but Lich-Loved was going by the RAW and you weren't.
The rules as written also say that you must pray for your spells at the appointed time, the first time after that if the appointed time is impossible, or not until the next day. There is no way to do this and allow the character to leave slots open and fill them at an arbitrary time. It's not "unclear[]", it's directly contradictory. As noted, this means that you (as DM) have to choose which rule to follow if you choose to follow the written rules in this matter at all.
I choose the first rule; you choose the second rule. If and when WotC decides to errata this, one or both of us will need to choose whether to follow the errata or use an explicit house rule. Until that time everybody gets to use a house rule. (I understand that you find my argument unpersuasive; likewise, I find your argument unpersuasive. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.)
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Nice try, Doug, but the RAW says clerics can leave slots empty and fill them in later. It says so unclearly, which is why the FAQ had to clarify the RAW, but Lich-Loved was going by the RAW and you weren't.The rules as written also say that you must pray for your spells at the appointed time, the first time after that if the appointed time is impossible, or not until the next day. There is no way to do this and allow the character to leave slots open and fill them at an arbitrary time. It's not "unclear[]", it's directly contradictory. As noted, this means that you (as DM) have to choose which rule to follow if you choose to follow the written rules in this matter at all.
I'm inclined to agree w/vegipygmy. In law, there are pricipals of interpreting laws and contracts, and one of those is that if the provisions of a document should be read as consistent whenever possible. Thus a contradictory reading is rejected unless no other interpretation is possible.
Your reading creates a contradiction in the rules; his reading does not. All things being equal, did the authors intend a contradiction? Probably not.
Using your argument, I could say there is a contradiction on whether bard's can cast spells in light armor w/o suffering arcane spell failure. The general rule is that armor imposes a penalty; the bard ability says they do not have an ability. The only way to read these two rules in harmony is to recognize their relationship to each other.
Edit: Also, prepare is not the same as receive. If they had meant prepare, they would have said prepare.
I think I would have to rule with the "you get spells when you pray for them according to your deity" concept here, no matter what the FAQ says. Otherwise, having a set time to pray for spells means nothing. Clerics follow religeous rituals. If you don't follow rituals, you don't get the benefits. There is already leniency in that if you CAN'T pray for spells, that you can pray as soon as you are free to do so, so that a cleric that has been, say, captured and just now escapes can still get his spells for the day.
Then again, I don't like anything that makes divine casters seem too much like arcane casters, or that erodes the divide between them. The difference isn't just "clerics can cast healing spells and raise dead, and wizards get better offensive spells." Its more a matter of HOW the magic works. Clerics get spells that acheive a desired result, wizards get spells that produce a given effect. Wizards gather energies and study formulas, clerics clear their minds and open themselves to their god's will.
Why would any cleric leave a slot open on his prepared spell list? So what if your DM rules that empty slot still can be used to intstantaneously cast a healing spell. You can still cast that healihng spell with the slot filled. But you limit yourself to only healing spells. The fact that a cleric could convert any spell slot into an equivelent healing spell, makes a cleric spell selection more versatile. As a cleric I never prepare healing spells like cure light wounds, because I can convert any of my spells into healing magic.
For the record I side with the interpretation that an open spell slot could be spontaniously cast as a healing spell. IN fact the unused spell slot would be automatically filled with a healing spell. The magic is their when a character prays for spells, how he prepares it is the clerics responsability. If the slot remains unprepared then perhaps the magic still fills the slot.
What hapeens when a wizard leaves an open spell slot, is the magic still thier? If so then how does a wizard access this magic? Should thier be a feat for instant wizard spell casting?
FWIW...as a DM, in my campaigns, I would say that a cleric could use the unused slot for spontaneous casting, but it would take longer (i.e. casting time of 1 minute instead of standard action). So you better stabilize the patient first, then you're asking your deity to heal, but since you don't have the 'powered' slot, you are also asking for the extra 'power' that wasn't asked for earlier, so it takes longer than normal.
Why would any cleric leave a slot open on his prepared spell list?
Flexibility. If you prepare bull's strength for the day, then later decide that what you really need is make whole or lesser restoration, too bad for you. But if you leave the slot open, you have the option of later taking 15 minutes to fill it with augury or silence or whatever you might need.
What hapeens when a wizard leaves an open spell slot, is the magic still thier? If so then how does a wizard access this magic?
The rules are set forth in the PHB, but in short no, there is no "magic still thier." The slot is like an empty glass; yesterday's diet soda has been poured out, the glass has been washed and is now clean, ready to be filled with water, milk, juice, or whatever else you want. The wizard just has to sit down with his spellbook for at least 15 minutes.