CR for NPC's


3.5/d20/OGL


I personally think there is a simple problem with the CR system - NPC's with class levels are a push-over!

I mean, an NPC with say 10 character levels is no sort of challenge at all for a group of 4 x 10th level PC's, especially as each of the PC's have more (magical) gear than the NPC! Same for 4 x 6th level NPC's - a pushover! Nowhere the same level of challenge as a CR 10 monster. Compare a 10th level fighter opponent with a fire giant opponent - no contest! Only a Cleric has a snowballs chance of lasting more than a couple of rounds (depending on what stats and items you give it), and even then monsters tend to have less weaknesses. Would your 3rd level PC's rather fight an Ogre, or a 3rd level 1/2 Orc Barbarian? I think the Ogre still presents more of a challenge. Chain Devil, or 6th level Fighter? The list goes on...

In my games, I've recently decided to create a new CR system for NPC's with class levels. In a nut-shell, I figure a single character about two levels above the average party level is about an average challenge. The only place where this is a bit crude is the first couple of levels, where an NPC one level above the PC's is probably a reasonable challenge. For monsters with class levels, I'm OK with each character level adding 1 to the CR, but only once the character level exceeds the original CR (before then, I make it 2-1). Clear as mud? Let me try a different say of explaining:

NPC Level CR
1 1/2
2 1
3 1 1/2
4 2
5 3
6 4
7 5
8 6
etc.

Adding levels to anything with a base CR treats the NPC levels as +1/2 CR per level, until the levels reach the base CR, after which it's +1 CR per level. For example:
CR
Ogre 3
Ogre/Ftr1 3 1/2
Ogre/Ftr2 4
Ogre/Ftr3 4 1/2, say round up to 5
Ogre/Ftr4 6
Ogre/Ftr5 7
Ogre/Ftr6 8
Ogre/Ftr7 9
Ogre/Ftr8 10 (equivalent to say a 12th level Fighter NPC)
etc.

Not perfect still, especially as the classes are not all created equal especially when you only fight one or two rather than a balanced party, but much more in tune with monster CR, I feel.

Thoughts welcome, please...

Scarab Sages

Hastur wrote:

I personally think there is a simple problem with the CR system - NPC's with class levels are a push-over!

I mean, an NPC with say 10 character levels is no sort of challenge at all for a group of 4 x 10th level PC's...

I am not sure if I agree with you here. The rules seem to state that a CR 10 should use up around 1/4 of a 10 level party of four's resources. It really shouldn't be that much of a challenge for them to take out a CR 10 creature if the party is all 10th level.

I also don't know if I agree with you about a 10th level fighter. If the fighter is built right, I think that they should be just as challenging as a fire giant. Fighters get a larger hit die, a whole lot more feats, better base attack -- really the feats are what can make the fighter vicious.

I will agree with you that sometimes a CR may not fit the encounter. Lone wizards are hard to judge -- they can be incredibly dangerous for 1 or 2 rounds, but with their low hit points, that may be all that they will last as far as damage. Ogres are hard to judge -- When the PCs are low level (1st or 2nd) I feel that their CR is too low, while at higher levels (5th-6th) they are almost reduced to cannon fodder.

That being said -- CR really has two purposes: Approximating the difficulty of an encounter and distribution of experience points.

As far as approximating the difficulty of an encounter -- This is probably the most difficult area that I have had to deal with as a DM. There is so much more to this than just looking at the CR. I look at the CR, look at the abilities of the party and look at the abilities of the creature(s). I will then modify to suit my needs. I really feel that CR (as well as a lot of the rules) are as much "guidelines" as rules. A lot of this is a whole lot of trial and error.

As far as the distribution of XP -- There have been enough threads on this that I don't feel the need to re-hash this further.

As far as your progression as written -- it looks to me to be very similar to the CR progression of the NPC classes (Warrior, Adept, etc.) which tells me that you may not be utilizing the base classes to their fullest. I still feel that a 10th level fighter, properly built, should easily be a match for a fire giant. If this is true, then your progression is probably warranted.

Regardless -- do what works for you and your group. You know this better than anyone.

Just a few thoughts. Hope that this helps.

Bill

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