CR 20 at 16th level....what were they thinking?
Easy. DMG p 49. Table 3-2. Fifteen per cent of encounters can reasonably be 'very difficult' encounters EL 1-4 levels higher than party level. With preparation and rest before and after, an encounter on that level is not an unreasonable challenge. It SHOULD be a tough fight, but that's the idea. And given that, while the modules state that the adventures are set for a party of four, parties of five, six and seven, seem more common and should be able to confront this challenge.
Just my two copper pieces worth
Creative Director
|
We are on the Druid Island and in the plane on it.
CR 20 at 16th LEVEL!!!!!!!!
Come on what are you writers thinkingThen in one fight a CR 18, Two 15s, 17, and a 16 (there abouts can’t remember the effrit on nightmare's CR I think it’s the 17)
I really do believe the average party is losing one person and encounter through this part.
Plus this is all after being stuck on this island and fighting a homemade CR 16 that deals 180 to 240 a round.
Maybe this is just me but every encounter does not have to be the parties equal or greater. For all those familiar with the phrase we are fighting Chief after Chief no Indians
This adventrue was designed to give the PCs significant challenges that don't necessarilly require combat to resolve. The CR 20 encounter, for example, can be resolved with diplomacy or stealth. That said, I fully expect many of the encounters in "Library" to end in combat.
At high level, CRs start to break down. What can be a CR 20 encounter can be finished before the combat really begins if you get in a lucky finger of death or destruction spell. 16th level characters bring a LOT of power to the combat; don't underestimate their strength in a battle.
As for the CR 16 that deals that much damage (I assume you're talking about the inhabitant of area M2), keep in mind that its ranged attacks are much less potent and that it's mobility is very limited. Not all combats should require (or even reward) straight-up melee, and this battle is certainly one in which the PCs should use their increased mobility and ranged superiority to win the battle. I don't understand the comment about this monster being "homemade" thoguh, since it's from an official WotC source. It's as "homemade" as a kobold or a roper or a half-orc barbarian.
Even if the party loses PCs, at 16th to 17th level group can fix that fairly easilly assuming they have clerics or similar characters.
Finally, the nature of "Library" is that the PCs set their own schedule. They can tackle the encounters in any order they wish, have plenty of opportunities to scout out the area (physically or with divination magic), and can prepare for the battles before hand. Once the battle starts, they don't have to hold back. They can throw everything they've got at the the enemy and then rest.
In any case, if your party's having trouble with the enemies in "Library" you should certainly consider running them on a side adventrue to gain them a level or two before continuing with the Adventure Path. The adventures aren't going to get easier!
A great example of what James referred to:
My group in SCAP is currently of average ECL of 12 and I have 9 PCs - this raises their party ECL to about 14, which, incidentally, is still under the recommended ECL for "Foundation of Flame" of 16 (if I recall).
At the end of the module, they encounter Hookface, an EL18 encounter that, as written, they shouldn't kill and would be better off escaping from...
Result of encounter: Hookface seriously hurts 2 PCs on its first pass and circles around (saving the Wingover for the second pass); as it circles, the Paladin and his mount (a Polar Bear that has had Fly cast on it by the mage)gain altitude over three rounds, during which the mage has hit the Dragon with two empowered Orbs of force (via metamagic rod) for relatively minor damage.
On round three, the dragon is lining up for another attack run on round 4 - but the mage's third empowered Orb of Force scores a crit!
The 30d6 damage is followed by the Paladin's single attack run - a diving charge that hits and exceeds the damage of the Orb!
The charging mount hits with its attack last, which kills the Dragon!
Hookface never had the opportunity to call off the attack or retreat...he went from 75% HPs to dead - before his next action.
Moral of the story: an ECL 14 party took out an EL18 encounter in THREE rounds...no punches pulled, but with a little luck.
I always tell my players that, once you reach a certain level of play, there WILL ALWAYS be encounters that wind up with a "save or Die" roll of a d20 - at high levels, you must be prepared to die on a single roll, because sometimes, that's all you need.
M
