Hi all,
I have some troubles finding a system that pleases me about this topic (character wealth and item creation Feats) and I'd like to see how you DMs handle this.
Here is how I do it so far:
1) For each of my players, I have an Excel worksheet with all the items they owe (including really everything from their holy water or sunrod to their +5 keen human bane bastard sword).
I update the sheet after every module (not during it), so I can keep track of how they are faring in terms of wealth. I also have a separate sheet to keep track of the things they owe in common (like "wands of cure x wounds" or spoils they have not sold yet).
The sheet automatically calculates their wealth as it should be for their actual XP (calculating their progression within their current level as a percentage). So it's quite precise.
2) If they miss on treasures because of mistakes or poor perfomances, I do not try to fix it right away.
I usually do a "fixing" action every three levels. So if they have less equipment than needed for their level and it is because of their mistake, they lag a bit behind for a level or two (doing penance) and then they find a particularly large hoard or treasure that brings them back afloat.
3) On the other hand, if I have been too generous (by mistake), I tend to starve them for spoils until it is more or less corrected.
But if I failed to give them enough treasures overall (and it's not their fault), then I try to fix it quickly to reestablish the balance.
The problem I have is this:
If the wizard can Craft Wondrous Items and she makes herself "Bracers of Armor +3". Shall these count at their full value against her wealth per level?
I tend to think "no". Since I regularly balance their actual wealth against what it should be, it would mean that she possesses the same value of equipment like her fellow adventurers, whereas her Feat is supposed to give her an edge in making the most out of her share of the money they find.
At the same time, if I count the object for only half its price (since it's what it costed her), she might end up being much much better equipped than the others (overtime). That's maybe the intention of the Feat, but can't this go too far?
Furthermore, since she is paying XPs for her stuff, it means that she should possess a bit less than the others, whereas her Feat tends to
Well, you see the mess I am in.
Maybe it is because I do control at the "exit" (i.e. what do they owe) and not at the "entrance" (what do they get). The reason I chose to do so is because potions and scrolls get used and disappear, items get sold and lose value, etc. So if I respect the official "treasure value per encounter" in the DMG, my experience is that they quickly end up underequipped (because of value loss of items used or resold).
I would be happy if you could let me know how you are dealing with this yourself and hear any tips or suggestions you'd have.
Thanks a lot in advance!
Bocklin
I've never dealt with item creation feats, but my inclination would be to go ahead and count the items at half value, because the wizard is not only paying experience to craft the items, but also spending a feat slot to be able to do so, which further reduces her raw spellcasting prowess in comparison with a wizard who takes a Metamagic Feat or some such instead.
I've never met anyone who wants to play an item creator (except in the case of the Artificer class, and that's only because they get bonus experience specifically for crafting magic items); the loss of a feat, the downtime, and the experience cost combine to make it resoundingly unattractive to most of the people I know, myself included. If your player is willing to go ahead and do it, I say let her, and let her have the "excess" treasure for her efforts. Sure, she'll gain back the experience relative to the party over time, but by that time chances are that the item she spent it on will be expended or no longer useful anyway.
Unless she's abusing the experience system by getting just shy of the next level while everyone else levels up, rocketing ahead in experience, and then using item creation to get back down, I don't really see that it would make her any more powerful in the long run... though as I said, I've never had the opportunity to playtest that approach.
If the wizard can Craft Wondrous Items and she makes herself "Bracers of Armor +3". Shall these count at their full value against her wealth per level?
No, that's what she got the feat for. Same with those who put ranks into Craft and actually make their stuff. Since not many (that I've played with) actually use the craft skill and feats, you might as well reward those who do.
That excel sheet idea sounds nifty though.
TK
Hi both!
Thanks for the input. That was my impression, but I was not sure enough that I could trust myself. It's the first time I had to adjudicate such a situation, so it's very helpful.
If you are interested in the Excel sheet, let me know and I can email you a copy from home.
Bocklin
Oooo! I've become something of an excel sheet collector recently... ;-P
Sock it to me!
thanis.kartaleon@gmail.com
TK
If I pay 5,000 gp and 400 XP to make myself an item that normally costs 10,000 gp, then that's essentially 5,000 gp of treasure I've got. I've paid for the rest of the item's power by spending a feat and 400 XP.
For the purposes of your excel sheet, count self-made items as half; that is to say, what they cost. It's generally easier to monitor the amount of gold going in than going out.
Well, I tried to post this earlier, and got it written, but had to run and left the computer to load the post on its own. Apparently, when it realized it was no longer being watched, the maralith within the damned machine decided to break loose and eat my post. However, I've returned, beaten her back with my Holy pigsticker, and am ready to try reposting! :)
Bocklin, let me start of by saying "Wow" and "Kudos for your dilligence!" That's really impressive, that you would keep such detailed records. However, it seems that it may now be causing you trouble, and at this point, I just have to say:
Screw it.
If you can get by without any problems, more power to you, but when a chart like that starts getting stressful, it's probably outlived its usefulness. As I see it, and this is only my opinion, so long as you aren't giving a staff of the magi to a novice party or a masterwork longsword to a 20th level group (meaning, something really dumb), the treasure should take care of itself. Just use the random rolling tables, and occaisionally throw in something you want. If the red drgon gets crap on his random rolls, change his horde to what you think a dragon's horde SHOULD be.
Using too many tables to determine what the party finds and what they fight, etc., etc., makes the game feel far too formulated for me. Many times, when I roll of copper beyond about 3rd level, I just make it gp or pp, since I know the party will either take it (and why make them suffer for having to carry around that much copper) or (this is not going to happen with my group, but for discussion's sake) leave it, in which case, you've screwed them out of cash, which the tables say they should have and will expect them to have, but they actually left it behind because it weighed too much.
If you just kind of let things go, it seems to flow in a much more organic form. The party may be a little overpowered here, underpowered there, but more or less, it balances. Also, if you always use the charts, and they know this, it lessens their drive to quest for money, since they know that they'll get it one way or the other no matter what, or if they get a lot, the flow will just shut off until they're back to normal.
So, no offense intended, and again I applaud the effort you have put forth, but it's probably not worth your time to do so. However, that's all just my opinion.
Oooo! I've become something of an excel sheet collector recently... ;-P
Sock it to me!thanis.kartaleon@gmail.com
TK
On its way!
To Saern: No offense taken! All comments and points of view are useful. Thanks for yours.
I am kind of a "rule lawyer"-DM and like to do things according to the book. My being so pedantic about wealth-per-level ratio comes from that I had a major problem in a previous campaign, where I used the official treasures and random table, but at some point (around lvl 9), I realised each of the players were somewhere like 10 to 15K behind in terms of what they should have.
So, since then I try to be more systematic and have developped that Excel sheet (living in Germany has probably made me details obsessed ;-) ). My players don't really know exactly how I handle treasures (two don't really care and the third one has neve asked), so they've not had the possibility to abuse it so far.
I know I will keep on using it and will probably stick to the 0.5 ratio for the self-made items.
Thanks again for all comments so far.
Bocklin
I've never dealt with item creation feats...
Then your a nice DM and give your players adequite gold - try starving them of gold for a bit and see how fast they take these feats. My PCs take item creation feats like crazy - anything to earn that extra gold.
Many times, when I roll of copper beyond about 3rd level, I just make it gp or pp, since I know the party will either take it (and why make them suffer for having to carry around that much copper) or (this is not going to happen with my group, but for discussion's sake) leave it...
This probably means that your PCs are, at least some of the time, strapped for cash. Certianly my players would also take the copper - in fact they take anything not nailed down and went and bought crowbars for stuff that is.