This question is for those of you who have experience with real historical weaponry: what is the practical difference between a curved sword (katana or scimitar) and a straight sword (long sword)? What about the difference between a sword that 'wobbles' like the Green Destiny (Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon) and a rigid blade?
Thanks in advance,
TS
Regarding the curved sword vs. straight sword, my two cents:
(History buffs: The following analysis is oversimplified, but feel free to argue anyway.)
Europe advanced in heavy armor technology to a degree that the orient did not, to the point where cutting through armor was hopeless. By the end of the middle ages, swords were increasingly not cut & thrust but club & thrust. Eventually heavy armor fell out of favor and the fencing blade with heavy parrying dagger combo that dominated "civilized" combat until gunpowder rendered melee weaponry obsolete.
For fighting against heavy armor, maces and hammers became the weapons of choice. You can't cut plate mail, but you can smash it out of shape, including the poor human inside. By the 16th century, swords meant to be used against plate mail were heavy square things that came to a stabbing point. You'd duel the opponent until you could knock him down, then step on him and stab the point through a joint in the armor; the neck for choice. (Run a search on the sword style "estoc".)
In the orient, lighter armor and mobility prevailed, perhaps for reasons of climate, or culture, I couldn't begin to say. When you don't have heavy armor to render cutting a useless tactic, a curved blade is superior as a cutting implement. The curve keeps the angle between the blade and the surface being cut more constant as the sword sweeps through an arc. Some truly amazing cuts are possible with these blades. Google up some videos of martial arts masters performing "test cuts" with katana to get an idea. Bundling up an entire futon matress, wetting it down, and then chopping through the whole thing is offered as equivalent to cutting through the torso of a human body, and some of the most practiced masters can perform this cut with enough speed to catch the pieces in mid-fall for two or three cuts.
The lighter armor that made these cutting blades favored was favored for reasons of mobility. The mongol hordes might never have had armor to match the europeans they encountered, but they could ride circles around their opponents and rain arrows from their superior composite shortbows, or engage in feats of speed and deception on an army scale that their european opponents couldn't match.
Religious symbolism also seems to have played a part: note that a straight sword with a straight guard becomes a symbolic crucifix when planted tip down, where a scimitar more closely resembles the crescent moon that is one symbol of Islam. Technological reasons for one blade or another aside, people hack each other up for ideological reasons, and making their tools to be symbols of the faith helps keep the armies loyal. Many a fallen crusader was buried with his sword for a headstone.
A good summation, Thanis!
I think climate and resource availability may have had a lot to do with it. Compare the armor style of Western Europe vs the Middle East. There are many stories from the Crusades where knights in their heavy armor collapsed because of the heat. I have visions of Texas summers, then coupled with underclothing, a padded gambeson of wool and linen, chain mail, tabard, a helm with a padded coif and felt lining...Early crusades had the flat-top "mace-magnet" style helms with few airholes for breathing. You have absolutely no peripheral vision in those things. Getting hit upside the head in a flat-top helm makes it ring like a bell and your vision goes all blurry (first hand experience, thank you!).
Ick. It's 48 degrees outside in Oregon and the thought of wearing all that armor is making me sweat...phew.
Compare that to the likely armor of their Muslim opponents - light cotton underclothing, padded gambeson made of layers of silk, scale or splint mail for armor, a cotton turban (which handily is a fabric that absorbs moisture (sweat) readily) topped with a conical helm.
Also consider the weapon weight - a scimitar weighs four pounds, while a greatsword weighs eight. A scimitar is designed for slashing and stabbing (better for scale and splint mails) which can effectively do more damage on limbs - one quick blow to a major artery or a piercing thrust to the torso can cause some serious damage. Personally, I'd much rather be swinging a relatively light and sharp scimitar than a two-handed broadsword in the desert any day of the week.
Something I have noticed in my studies of that particular time period is how drastically things changed post-First Crusade when those Crusaders started coming home. Previously, castles were square, rectangular keeps. Afterwards, they were rounded. Why? Rounded castle walls stay up better when their bases are being mined or burned (a method in which you would tunnel under the castle wall and set fire or collapse the support structure).
Anyway, I think I've rambled well enough. :-D
Gods bless all you of the useless trivia, wish I knew more myself!
TS
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The floppy swords you mentioned are made of "spring steel" and some asian swords were made of it to utilize the extreme flex of the metal for certain combat techniques. Aflick of the wrist could deflect a blow or send your sword on a slightly different path to bypass a blocking weapon. I trained with Lion-head Tai chi Swords made of spring steel and there are a lot of intricacies involved in their use. The Asian world was far ahead of the arms race with sword and weapon developement, their weapons were lighter, stronger, and could hold edges much better than any european blades of the same era. That is why you see so much deviation in the different asian swords. Straight, curved, thick, thin, etc. they truly were masters at the craft of sword making.
FH
For those of you interested in weapons, I strongly suggest you pick up "Weapons: An International Encyclopedia From 5000 B.C. to 2000 A.D., Updated Edition" By The Diagram Group.
It goes to great lengths to explain the use of weapons from way back when to just about now. Great line illustrations too.
Here's the Amazon link to the book:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312039506/qid=1141728576/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_ 1/103-7832415-0179846?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
For those of you interested in weapons, I strongly suggest you pick up "Weapons: An International Encyclopedia From 5000 B.C. to 2000 A.D., Updated Edition" By The Diagram Group.
Heartily seconded!!! Fantastic book, a must-read.
A good summation, Thanis!
I think climate and resource availability may have had a lot to do with it. Compare the armor style of Western Europe vs the Middle East. There are many stories from the Crusades where knights in their heavy armor collapsed because of the heat. I have visions of Texas summers, then coupled with underclothing, a padded gambeson of wool and linen, chain mail, tabard, a helm with a padded coif and felt lining...
Indeed. You're a SCAdian as well, so I'm sure you've seen the regional difference in arms and armor from the various kingdoms? There's a reason Meridies and Trimaris tend towards Celtic and Arabic styles - it's rare to see someone in full heavy armor at Gulf Wars, because they'll pass out in a heartbeat. Tunics and braes are /far/ more comfortable in 90 degree weather than Elizabethan...
The book mentioned previously is an excellent resource, and I recommend it for any weapons buff. I have a copy myself, and I use it. All the time. =)
There are dozens of answers to this question, and all of them are right. The variations of historical weapons have a great many reasons for them; the Roman gladius (shortsword) was designed more as a stabbing weapon than a slicing weapon. The Norse tended to favor heavier weapons that could be thrown or used in slashing maneuvers. The Welsh favored 'hunting weapons' - sword, wide-bladed swords, daggers, axes, spears and bows.
I'll stop. I could go on all day long. The easiest answer IMC is that D&D is not historically accurate, and that the PHB is an amalgam of various types of weapons rather than specific weapons themselves.
There is definitely an difference in fighting styles between SCA kingdoms, Gwydion. Up here in An Tir, it's heavily Nordic as the weather - well it's damp a good percentage of the time and not always terribly warm. Norse or Mongol in the winter, Arabic and other "warm-weather" personas in the summer. I've heard that it's also the case in Ansteorra and the southern kingdoms ;-). The "mongol hats" are really popular here, the felted wool hats with fur trim (sooooo warm....) because it rains a lot in the valley, and you wanna keep your head dry and warm.
Anyway, back to the subject of the thread, there's definitely an impact in what people wear to fight when they do fight and what they fight with depending on where you're from. "Sword and board" is de rigeur here (sword and shield of some sort, for those that aren't up the SCA-speak). I haven't seen a whole lot of variation in that style, only on style tourneys. One Knight, Sir Morgan, an awesome fighter and gentleman if there ever was one, fights with a madu, which is really cool. I've seen the double-weapon style, but it's not as easy as it sounds or seems at first. One punny guy fought with a "pike" - which was an SCA-legal weapon made to look like a fish. I tend to prefer the style tourneys more than the Crown or Coronet tourneys - I think they all have a heck of a lot more fun than when you're trying to win the Crown/Coronet for your Inspiration.
The Jakko Diamond tourney, a coronet tradition here in the Summits of An Tir, is a strict style tourney that's always a lot of fun. The last one I saw one of the fighters challenged anyone who was "man or woman enough to fight him fairly!" He promptly proceed to pull out two chairs and they fought each other from a sitting position. Great fun, some good ideas for a fighter tourney in D&D. :-P
Heh. I'm noticing we have a tendency to hijack threads, Lilith. =0
I am very much aware that SCA-style fighting is comparable - but not identical - to real-world fighting. That being said, anyone who wants a good understanding of how a weapon works would do well to see it used 'in the field,' so to speak.
I know a few people who use madus. It's an interesting weapon, but not one I would have any talent for. =)
BOT, those who think that TWF is easy...let me tell you ... there is a reason so many cultures use shields or two-handed weapons. Shields are far more important for blocking than the small AC bonus they get gives credit for!
*EDIT* The most unusual tourney I've seen...it was set up as a barroom brawl. The mugs and plates and whatnot were padded to be considered legal clubs. It was amusing, watching the knights go to town on each other with "daggers' shaped to represent chicken legs!
you may also want to check out the "samurai vs knight" article in dragon #323. a comparison of blades, fighting styles and just about everything else
For those of you interested in weapons, I strongly suggest you pick up "Weapons: An International Encyclopedia From 5000 B.C. to 2000 A.D., Updated Edition" By The Diagram Group.
It goes to great lengths to explain the use of weapons from way back when to just about now. Great line illustrations too.Here's the Amazon link to the book:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312039506/qid=1141728576/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_ 1/103-7832415-0179846?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
Does this book give a good breakdown by culture or just by age? For example, if I want to look up specifically weapons and armour of the Sumerains or Mesopotamians is there a section just for them (or any other culture you care to name)? 7000 years seems like a lot to cover between two covers...
Cheers
Llowellen
Does this book give a good breakdown by culture or just by age? For example, if I want to look up specifically weapons and armour of the Sumerains or Mesopotamians is there a section just for them (or any other culture you care to name)? 7000 years seems like a lot to cover between two covers...
Cheers
Llowellen
It's broken up fairly easily by weapon types, then by culture, IIRC. It's sitting on my art table at home, open to the lance page, and they give examples of common European lances, but a few non-standard types used in other cultures. You might want to check your library to see if they have it and check it out there and see if its something you want to buy.