Leveling the party during Foundations of Flame and Thirteen Cages


Shackled City Adventure Path


How does this work?

Is the party supposed to actually gain three levels in a matter of hours?

Party starts Foundation of Flame at 15th level, but is supposed to be 16th level for Thirteen Cages, which takes place "hours" after FoF ends (I am assuming its 8 hours later so the party can rest and regain spells).

Thirteen Cages is set against a timer. The party is not supposed to rest or regain resources until the end of the adventure. They are also supposed to be 18th level by the next adventure. Is it really possible to survive enough encounters to level twice without resting or regaining resources?

I consider myself pretty relaxed about leveling - I allow members to gain a level after a night's rest - but it would appear that they are supposed to "ding" a la Everquest.

How have other DMs handled this?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

There's nothing wrong with PCs leveling up in a matter of hours of game time. Tradition holds that time is a factor in leveling up, but in a structured campaign like Shackled City, it shouldn't matter, since the campaign's designed to challenge PCs of certain levels at certain times. Near the end of Shackled City, time compresses down rather tightly.

Of course, the fact that MMORPGs are so incredibly popular indicates to me that they're doing something right. I think it's dangerous to assume that D&D shouldn't adopt an "Instant Leveling" format like EQ or World of Warcraft simply because it hasn't done so before. Personally, in the games I run, the only reason PCs don't instant level is because I don't want to break the game's flow to calculate XP after every encounter. I hand it out at the end of each session (rarely, I'll do so in the middle), and if someone levels, they get to level up their character at once, even if we ended the session in the middle of a combat.


Well, there is certainly nothing wrong with turning decades old conventions on how to run D&D on their ear - but I kinda like making those sorts of decisions myself.

What I am looking for is less of an official "the module is always right" answer and more advise from like-minded DMs (call me "old-school" if you want) who prefer to find a way to make these chapters work without having to explain to their players why the rules for leveling that everyone has been using for the last 15 levels (if not years of gaming) didn't just get tossed out the window.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

This seems like a bit of an overreaction... I'm certainly not trying to imply that D&D's been broken for the past 15 years and Shackled City's the product that fixes it. It's just that the way that Foundations of Flame and Thirteen Cages are structured, they expect that PCs will have a chance to level up at some point in the middle of the mayhem.

There's a bit of a chance for down time between the two chapters, when the PCs are catching their breath after evacuating the city and preparing to head down into the depths. Thirteen Cages is as much about resource management as it is about being high level, and once PCs start this chapter of the adventure, they're certainly on a timer. If you're concerned that the PCs could accumulate enough XP to advance a level in the middle of Thirteen Cages, my advice would be to just hold off on the XP awards until after that adventure's done.


I am even moreso concerned that characters are supposed to gain enough XP to level twice by the end of Thirteen Cages, and do it without resting.

I am no math guru, but that seems a bit difficult. Are there mitigating circumstances that I have not noticed in the chapter that allow a party of six characters to gain around 186,000 xp in one shot? That comes out to 42 CR 15 encounters.

Perhaps the issue is not whether the party will level in the middle of the chapter, but rather is the party going to be the appropriate level at the beginning of Strike on Shatterhorn.

This is the reason I am seeking advice from DMs who have run these adventures.


Per the Player's Handbook, you level when you receive sufficient level of XP to do so, with no limitations on time needed before you level.

It is different for us as well. So far, I haven't minded and I don't think the players mind either because it means they can press on after they got a second wind. It's been occuring since Jzaderune. I send e-mails to players to level their character even though we are mid-adventure when the session ended. If they gain new spell slots, it only takes 15 minutes of study or contemplation to fill them. I have limited wizards to need a rest period before they can prepare from the two new spells they receive from leveling, but I'm thinking about dumping that also.

Dark Archive

I came up with a simple solution to this whole problem.

My perspective opinion as a DM believes that people should not level up in a matter of hours or days. It breaks the Versimilitude of the world ... "hi Dave, haven't seen you in a week. What's new? Oh, you can plane shift and cast wish now? Cool!"

However, my players want to advance in level. It's a core mechanic of the game, and it's partially how they measure their progress, or success.

So, here's what I do. If you get whacked by something bad, such as picking up something nasty and evil you shouldn't, you can gain a negative level - minus 5 hp, and -1 to all skills, saves, attack rolls, and lose your highest level spell slot. So, I give out XP at the end of each session, and if the PCs have enough to level up without a break (of at least a few days of peace and quiet), they gain a positive level - +5 hp, +1 to all saves and attack rolls and skill checks, and one extra slot of their highest level spells.

Once we have down time, they can convert that positive level into a class level of their choice.

Occassionally, a player will gain a couple of positive levels if it's a lengthly adventure - at this point I often relent and if the player doesn't want to take some new prestige class, or suddenly learn wizardry and have his spell-book delivered by pigeon post, I'll let then take a class level instead of a second positive level. If they want something odd or unexplanable (look! I read Channeling Ki for Dummies, and now I'm a monk!) they keep their cumulative positive levels until they get a reasonable breather.

This too solves the problem of players who can't decide what to take at their next level, or make poor levelling choices based on the current plight of their characters in their current situation (and they regret later). It 'telegraphs' the fact they know they have to plan their next level (even though they should anyway).

That's my two farthings on the matter ...


I've played since just before AD&D V1, Unearthed Arcana, came out and as a player *hated* having to train, wait, etc. when my PC had enough experience to 'make a level'.

I don't like it as a DM either. What I do, is *generally* have the PCs rest overnight before leveling up. There have been exceptions to this. I do not level up mid battle, but if a session ends mid battle and they will level after, everyone gets an email telling them to bring the current character with current spells, items, etc. and a leveled up character. If they can rest, they are allowed to heal, spell up, etc. else they get the level without those benefits.


trepelano wrote:
How have other DMs handled this?

When the characters have enough experience to level up, I allow them to level. There is only one catch for the players and it's that it takes them training time to learn a new core class (i.e., they multiclass), a feat or spell from one of the Complete books, or a prestige class. I've told them that the best way to do it is for them to take X amount of time during the lull periods and train then. Otherwise, they'll have to defer whatever it is that they want to take until such time as they get the training they need.

If they advance in a class they already have levels in or take core feats or spells, no training time is necessary.

I have structured my SCAP a little differently than it's laid out in the book. My campaign will take place over a period of years, allowing the PCs ample opportunity to do this training and get involved in the community. I've also warned them that toward the end of the campaign, things will move very quickly and the ability to train will be greatly reduced.

(I've never liked that a character can go from being a wet-behind-the-ears greenhorn to an epic level character in one game year. It just seems...wrong somehow.)

I almost always let them know they've levelled at the end of one session so they'll be ready for the next week. Rarely, I will let them know mid-session.

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