I'm trying to create a new mastermind and I need clarification of some of the MM rules for creating monsters.
He's a half-fiend heiracosphinx cleric.
Now, how I interpret the rules if I give him 8 levels of cleric plus the half-fiend template he becomes a CR 14 monster with a whole bunch of Spell-Like abilities.
CR 7 + 8 non-associated class levels = CR 11. As a half-fiend this also boosts his HD up to 17, gives him almost all the Spell-Like Abilities listed in the MM and increases his CR by 3, thus his CR = 14.
Constructive comments and calrifications are appreciated.
Can you cite your source for the HD increase for a half-fiend. Other than that it seems correct.
Yes, I think you overlooked something in the template. The half-fiend doesn't increase HD. Otherwise, you're right on the money.
Sorry, my original post was somewhat confusing.
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9 HD for the base creature (heiracosphinx)
+8 HD for 8 levels of cleric
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17 HD
The Spell-Like abilities for a half-fiend is based on the number of hit dice. My first question is: does the creature have the Spell-Like Abilities as a 9 HD creature or as a 17 HD one?
The CR of a half-fiend creature changes based on the number of HD (with all the nifty powers). So my second question: would it be +2 as a 9 HD creature or +3 as a 17 HD creature?
I'm inclined to say that it is a 17 HD heiracosphinx, the abilities of an 8th level cleric, and all the Spell-Like Abilities of a 17 HD half-fiend. This puts it at a CR of 14.
Now see the thing with a nemisis is that one person must kill the other, kind of like harry potter and voldemort. I mean, ron's not just going to sneak up behind Voldemort and kill him.
A nemisis has to be a nemisis for a certain character. One must kill the other. Else it's not a nemisis, just another BBEG
I don't know...
Now see the thing with a nemisis is that one person must kill the other, kind of like harry potter and voldemort. I mean, ron's not just going to sneak up behind Voldemort and kill him.
A nemisis has to be a nemisis for a certain character. One must kill the other. Else it's not a nemisis, just another BBEGI don't know...
When I think about nemisis, I think of a half metal zombie that cant be killed armed with two basookas.
If anyone knows what I'm talkin about, I would love to see that statblock:)
When I think about nemisis, I think of a half metal zombie that cant be killed armed with two basookas. If anyone knows what I'm talkin about, I would love to see that statblock:)
"STARS!"
Generally, I think a nemesis is a recurring villain of equal or greater power than the party who foils them whenever he shows up. It will take luck, planning and sound strategy to get the upper hand on this guy, and even then, killing him is unlikely.
My best nemesis was a fairly simple bandit leader back in the 2nd Ed. days; despite the party assaulting several safehouses and small towers operated by a Greyhawk-wide bandit ring, the nemesis and a couple lieutenents would always escape. By the end of the campaign, they had tracked him across the continent, to a temple in the Hellfurnaces...
Imagine the party's horror when they finally found their nemesis, hanging upside-down in a small chapel, eviscerated and freshly dripping onto the altar below...
...they realized at that moment that he wasn't the bandit leader - he was the second in command, who was sacrificed for allowing the party to destroy the operation!
The shock and horror of that moment stands as an early peak in my DMing career; a long, drawn out pursuit followed by the sudden denial of the epic clash they had been expecting for months. But they got that epic clash, with the Lich, the following session...
M
There is a post questioning shadow of the Abyss and the Cr of the main antagonist Velikar. He is a hill giant with 12 cleric levels and only a CR 13. I think they thought halfway through the idea of the CR change from 3.0 to 3.5. The post shows the benefits of the cleric opposed to a fighter of 1/2 the level. It is grossly unbalanced. With the addition of new spells in the Spell Compendium I an thinking of having character levels count as 3/4 up to HD of the creature. I had been doing 2/3 but there are too many ways to buff. Does a human fighter/mage have a lower CR? What gives?
While the discussions of various nemesises is intriguing, could anyone offer any insight on my original questions?
1.) Does the creature get all the Spell-Like Abilities of a 17 HD creature?
2.) Is it CR 14?
While the discussions of various nemesises is intriguing, could anyone offer any insight on my original questions?
1.) Does the creature get all the Spell-Like Abilities of a 17 HD creature?
2.) Is it CR 14?
Spell-like abilities do not go up in level by stacking more class levels unless the monster description specifically states that they do (i.e., Rakshasa Sorcerors) or the class levels are appropriate for the spell (i.e., sorceror/mage levels for arcane spell-like abilities, cleric levels for divine). I don't have a DMG or MM in front of me, so feel free to correct me on the second condition, anyone.
I would definitely agree that this is a CR17 creature.
M
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While the discussions of various nemesises is intriguing, could anyone offer any insight on my original questions?
1.) Does the creature get all the Spell-Like Abilities of a 17 HD creature?
2.) Is it CR 14?
The answer to both questions, is "Yes." 3.5 clarified that half-fiend Spell-like abilities, SR, and DR were all based on any HD the creature had, including those from class levels. Additionally, since an androsphinx has no previous cleric abilities, as you noted, they only count for 1/2 CR as per the RAW.
This being said, I will agree with the previous poster on the debate of cleric levels being non-associated- it's a bit hedgier than wizard/rogue/sorceror or the NPC class levels being non-associated and while I love this system, problems can creep up...
As giants are honestly the best example of where this system can be abused (given their large number of HD relative to CR and general combat prowess) I'll stick with them:
The key to ensuring that a class is truly non-associated, is to correctly use the stat spread given in the DMG for building NPCs. After all, if one decides to make a frost giant sorceror who only uses true strike and uses the stats for, say, a paladin (good charisma but still really strong physical stats) and wears big armor (because of the spell's lack of somatic components) then you may be mis-using the non-associated system... A single paladin (or anti-paladin ;)) level is giving our giant friend a d10, +1 attack, and +2 Fort (other abilities aside), while the 2 sorceror levels are still giving a +1 attack, +3 Will (a weak save for Giants) and access to a spell that allows to nearly automatically strike a foe (and put lots of points into Power Attack)- plus, the giant's solid Constitution score is applied twice, so he may even be beefier than the paladin version.
And thus the crux of the issue- if sorceror levels can be used to make a tougher giant, what happens when we roll out the d8, 3/4 Attack bonus buff machine that is the cleric? The AB adds up faster than a fighter, that good Con bonus is still being doubled, heavy armor and shields are available, and what does one say when the Cloud Giant with 16 levels in cleric (CR 19 w/ 17 giant HD and 16 cleric HD for 33 total) rolls out with Practiced Spell caster (CL boosted to 20) and a Divine Power for a Base attack of +33 and 33 temporary hp? What about when we add Righteous Might and the other host of brutal combat boosts?
Anyways, sorry if I rant, but I just wanted to really outline how things can go awry- personally, I advocate the 3/4 rule suggested above for clerics (favored soul, etc.), druids (less abusive, but still frighteningly good at "catching up"), and monks (mostly combat oriented, but the hefty stat requirements across the board make them less impressive than barbarian, fighter, ranger, paladin, etc).
Also, I personally suggest the Divine Power spell only applying to your class levels, not racial HD, and that Practiced never allows the monster to exceed either its own HD or its CR for the purpose of determining its caster level (i.e the 16th level cleric cloud giant, without a CR adjustment, would be capped at CL 19, not 20, thus preventing the total and complete outshining of a std. race cleric).
Again, sorry for the ramble, but perhaps this'll help people out?
P.S. I suppose my above statement then concludes that the androsphinx is 2 CR higher (since the cleric levels count for 6 CR, not 4), making it a CR 16. Basically, if this guy isn't ever going to see much melee (i.e. a cleric using Searing Light, Hold Monster, Prayer, Flame Strike, etc.), or use his buffs to enhance this ability, then you may want to treat the cleric levels as 1/2 CR. If he's going to use Divine Power and charge in with a Base Attack of +8 from the cleric levels, +6 strength, and his own massive base attack from his racial HD... yea, go w/ 3/4 CR. Remember, CR is a slippery, fluid thing- it depends as much on your party as on the creature's combined abilities.
I'm planning on playtesting the sphinx in a few weeks so we'll see just how bada$$ he is. He would be a melee-focused NPC becuase these things love to rake and claw at their opponents. I'll keep it in mind and see if there's going to be a huge problem with the party.
I'm planning on playtesting the sphinx in a few weeks so we'll see just how bada$$ he is. He would be a melee-focused NPC becuase these things love to rake and claw at their opponents. I'll keep it in mind and see if there's going to be a huge problem with the party.
Just curious: Will he speak in riddles?
Ultradan
I'm planning on playtesting the sphinx in a few weeks so we'll see just how bada$$ he is. He would be a melee-focused NPC becuase these things love to rake and claw at their opponents. I'll keep it in mind and see if there's going to be a huge problem with the party.
Just curious: Will he speak in riddles?
Ultradan
I was thinking more along the lines of the sphinx preparing lots of touch spells to be used with those claw attacks, but let's not step on the DMs toes...
M
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Good luck with the tesing, i'd love to hear the results.
Also, each 12th-level PC should have about 88,000 gp worth of equipment. A CR 12 human villain (or CR 12 hieracosphinx) should have about 27,000 gp worth of equipment. Actually, I think that PCs in general have too much equipment in regards to NPCs (but maybe I'm stingy, and that issue would be a different thread anyway).
This post made me think of something I recentely discovered, buried within the rules: If a creature is listed as advancing by HD only, then any augmentation to its CR (whether by templates or even class levels) should produce a higher treasure table roll (i.e. rolling on the EL 14 table, not the 5) not the assignment of actual gear (though some basic items, like AC boosters or a small stat boost items seem to be par for the course in official sources that I've seen).
If the creature instead is advanced by character class, then you roll on their table as normal for their base CR, and then give them gear for their NPC levels proportional to the amount of CR added by said levels (i.e. they only receive NPC gear for their class levels, and thus receive less gear than a base race NPC would; example forthcoming)- in this way, most base race NPCs will still remain competitive in the face of half-fiend androsphinx clerics, due to the higher quality (i.e. cash value ;))of their gear, as well as the higher level spells at their beck and call. Having run a campaign high in classed monsters and not using the above rule, I can honestly assure you that no base race PC would ever match up to their monstrous counterparts, no matter what CR may say.
In this way, the 20th level NPC has 220k (good gear), while an "HD advancing" monster, say a marilith with 4 fighter levels (or 8 extra HD), is an EL 20 treasure roll (maybe with bracers of armor and magical swords included, but not a vast array of stat buff items and equipment that would make her unstoppably brutal).
For those counting at home, a CR 20 "Class advancing" monster, say a yuan-ti abomination with 13 levels of ranger (CR 20), would have an EL 7 treasure roll, and then gear valued at 220k (CR 20) - (value of a 7th level NPCs gear) so he'll have perhaps 10-15k less in gear, but more generalized (and randomized) wealth. If you use an even larger CR creature and less class levels (storm giant, fighter 1), the difference is all the more apparent.
In my newest camapign, this all seems to be working out quite well, and I don't have the problems of justifying the addition of a single fighter level to a marilith, and thus granting her thousands of gold pieces and making her 2-3x more dangerous than her unclassed counterparts.
End Ramble #2
Just curious: Will he speak in riddles?
While I remember your penchant for riddles, especially those with a rhyme scheme, Ultradan. I must disappoint you. I figure this guy more of an unhinged narcisist who figures himself to be Pazuzu's heir.
According to my 3.5 MM, page 234, a hieracosphinx (9 HD) is CR 5.
Thanks for catching that, eric.