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Hi!
I wonder, if the classes (standard only) of D&D are really that balanced.
Almost every adventure I read or DMed needs a fighter, a wizard, a cleric and a rogue.
But what if you happen to have a druid, a bard, a sorcerer and a wizard?
This combination will have a really hard time getting through almost every module/adventure I've ever read!
It get's even more complicated, if you have less than 4 players (but this is not a balance problem of the game, as most adventures are written for 4 characters)!
Anyway, I wondered if a group consisting of a druid, a bard, a sorcerer and a wizard could possible survive something like AoW or SC?!
Ok, I know that the AoW adventures try to give every class its moment to shine (I am pretty sure I've read this somewhere...) but in the end this would make just 4 out of 12 adventures which are kind of "suitable" for the above group.
And it's not about powering them up with a lot of magic.
Have you experienced something like this as well? Do you, as the DM, as well think every time your players start rolling PCs for a new campaign:"Oh man, I so desperately hope they will generate a fighter, a wizard, a rogue and a cleric!!!"?!
I would say that your party (druid/bard/sorcerer/wizard), if played intelligently, can be effective. It's just a matter of delineating roles correctly: if the druid focuses on combat and animal summoning along with healing, the bard takes a lot of buff and charm spells to increase combat capabilities, and the wizard and sorcerer coordinate spell lists for maximum effectiveness, there should be situations where your group will really shine.
A good way for them to work is to focus on summoning creatures (the wizard and druid would be great for this) to keep monsters at bay while everyone else focuses on spells and ranged attacks. Be advised that allowing them to withdraw and rest periodically is even more essential for this group because they are so reliant on spells. It might be a good idea to have a fighting character tag along at lower levels, but once they have some experience under their belts, this should be a very powerful group.
In the end, as far as balance goes, any party combination can be played effectively with the right tactics. You have four characters, two of which are fairly adaptable, so even if they are a bit hit point deprived, their spell casting abilities should even things out a bit. Should be an interesting group!
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At lower levels magic users often meet some problems and require some muscle pcs who keep the worst danger at bay.
If you divide all classes into four main groups (like in 2nd ed. AD&D), then your combination would mean that you have two arcane spell casters, one divine spell caster and one roguish character. No warrior though. That could be pretty tough!
If you need some more muscle power in your group, one or two fighters/ barbarians/ rangers/ paladins/ swashbucklers/ samurai... wouldn't be wrong. On the other hand you could severely downgrade/ modify the encounters in adventure (i.e. less fatal fights, more challenges suitable for your cast of characters: social interaction/ historic knowledge for the bard, magic/ arcane knowledge for the arcane casters, animal encounters for the druid).
Just my few cents,
Guenther
P.S.: About the subject line of your posting:
There are already several discussions about "the best D&D class"/ "race"/ whatever: all of them provide unique role playing/ hack & slash opportunities. So it is up to each players personal taste, which one is her/ his favourite.
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...If you need some more muscle power in your group, one or two fighters/ barbarians/ rangers/ paladins/ swashbucklers/ samurai... wouldn't be wrong. On the other hand you could severely downgrade/ modify the encounters in adventure (i.e. less fatal fights, more challenges suitable for your cast of characters: social interaction/ historic knowledge for the bard, magic/ arcane knowledge for the arcane casters, animal encounters for the druid).
Just my few cents,
Guenther
Thanx, Guenther (are you german, btw? I am!).
You said it - you almost "have to" downgrade an adventure to make it work, but this would show, that the classes are not balanced, wouldn't it?! ;)|
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...so even if they are a bit hit point deprived, their spell casting abilities should even things out a bit. Should be an interesting group!
That's exactly the point! In higher levels there are some kind of monsters, which deal so much damage that it almsot makes you sick! Giants especially (My group is presently in Xen'drik) deal awfull high damage to single PCs! If you have no tank, things get awful most of the time!
Of course you're right in saying that it's just a tactical issue and the druid focusing on summoning and fighting is good advice, but my experience showed me quite too often, that low hp are the nemesis of any group which not happens to be the standard classes I mentioned above (Fighter, Cleric, etc...).
The classes are well balanced. They're all just good at what they do though, and you seem to be comparing them within the context of combat-heavy adventures. Not all the classes are balanced in a direct fight. For example; you could argue that the Paladin is under powered in a ninja based game, with his huge horse and clankin' armour. This is something the group should know, and they should play up to their strengths.
Our regular game has a group of three characters. A sorcerer, a Wizard and a Thief. They know they can't beat those Giants in a straight fight. So they *sneak* in and steal the golden egg laying goose.
Peace,
tfad
The classes are balanced perfectly for the 'standard' andventure type. If you have players that want an unbalanced combo of class types to play in such a standard adventure type, make sure to recommend the standard class formula (warrior-divine-arcane-opportunist). If they are set on their chosen classes though, my motto is 'let them learn the hard way'. This is assuming that you are running a standard adventure no matter what; an experienced DM can create non-standard adventures around non-standard class combos (if the DM is feeling generous).
I am currently running a standard type game for a group of new players, none of which are any of the four 'standard classes'. None have died yet; I've only had to fudge a roll once to prevent character death, and that was my fault. (note to self: four owlbears are too much for 4 4th level characters) I don't fudge rolls unless I make a big DM mistake, so we'll see if any of them die as the game gets rougher.
Hi!
I wonder, if the classes (standard only) of D&D are really that balanced.
Almost every adventure I read or DMed needs a fighter, a wizard, a cleric and a rogue.
But what if you happen to have a druid, a bard, a sorcerer and a wizard?This combination will have a really hard time getting through almost every module/adventure I've ever read!
It get's even more complicated, if you have less than 4 players (but this is not a balance problem of the game, as most adventures are written for 4 characters)!Anyway, I wondered if a group consisting of a druid, a bard, a sorcerer and a wizard could possible survive something like AoW or SC?!
Ok, I know that the AoW adventures try to give every class its moment to shine (I am pretty sure I've read this somewhere...) but in the end this would make just 4 out of 12 adventures which are kind of "suitable" for the above group.
And it's not about powering them up with a lot of magic.Have you experienced something like this as well? Do you, as the DM, as well think every time your players start rolling PCs for a new campaign:"Oh man, I so desperately hope they will generate a fighter, a wizard, a rogue and a cleric!!!"?!
Thanx, Guenther (are you german, btw? I am!).
You said it - you almost "have to" downgrade an adventure to make it work, but this would show, that the classes are not balanced, wouldn't it?! ;)
I'd say they are more or less balanced so long as one covers most of the bases. There is a meat shield a trap finder an artillery dude and a healer.
Depending on the level and type of campaign one might be able to get around certain classes. I tend to think the thief is easiest to dispense with by using find trap spells and such but its not ideal to not have a trap finder.
The Arcane Caster is extreme - I'd consider it near suicide to embark on a high level adventure without one - such adventures almost assume that an arcane caster is around. An example of this came up on a Thread about The Chamber of Antiquities in which a DMs players had been thumped hard by that adventure and it soon turned out that they they had two their types and no Arcane Caster and thus had no way to handle the fact that the opposition would be using Force Cage very very liberally and they would be stuck in the force cages unable to get out or teleport or anything else.
All of the above said Arcane Casters are pretty weak at low levels and you probably are more potent if you dispense with them completely until about 5th level when they become increasingly essential.
Meat Shields are also pretty tough to dispense with at all levels - some one has to stand in front of the raging monstrosity that has 10 claw attacks and a poisonous bite. Thats really a role for a fighter who's AC will hopefully mean that most attacks miss or the Barbarian who will hopefully be able to survive 10 claw attacks and a bite.
The most indispensable role in a party, IMO, is the cleric. In fact the standard cleric is so good that I think one could make an excellent party of nothing but clerics - for even more fun have everyone multi-class. One player takes the Cleric/Fighter, another Cleric/Thief, a third Cleric/Mage and finally the pure Cleric.
Any way I think saying the roles are not balanced misses the point balance does not mean that all classes are equally good at fitting every role - which would be what was necessary for all party compositions to be equally good at accomplishing something like the AoW AP but that the Sorcerer is both a good class when compared to a fighter, in its own way any how, and that the Sorcerer and the Wizard are more strictly balanced compared to each other since they both fill that important role of Arcane Caster.
Melee bruisers are indeed a valuable asset but a nonstandard party would just approach a situation in a non-standard way.
I'm pretty happy with the balance and I do not see a problem.
But I can't come up with any good examples either.
Hey if someone has a scenario that they think will especially challenge a non-standard party, post it and tell what party will be facing it , Three wizards and a bard or whatever. Then everyone else can post how they would go about it.
Hi!
I wonder, if the classes (standard only) of D&D are really that balanced.
Almost every adventure I read or DMed needs a fighter, a wizard, a cleric and a rogue.
But what if you happen to have a druid, a bard, a sorcerer and a wizard?Anyway, I wondered if a group consisting of a druid, a bard, a sorcerer and a wizard could possible survive something like AoW or SC?!
You're leaving out one of the archetypes. Using non-standard classes to fill the 'standard' roles would be more appropriately done with: Barbarian, Bard, Druid and Sorcerer. It seems like you're asking whether or not each category of character is balanced within itself.
Are divine casters balanaced against other divine casters? Cleric vs Druid.
Are opportunists/rogue types balanced? Bard vs Rogue.
Are arcane casters balanced? Sorcerer vs Wizard.
Are melee fighters balanced? Barbarian vs Fighter vs Paladin.
Each of these types of characters fill a specific function within the party in different ways. In your example, you're leaving out one of the standard functions that are a common factor of most adventures. With no warrior types, of course you will run into problems in some areas. I've played in a large number of games where characters were non-standard for the most part.
Bard, Cleric, Paladin and Sorcerer as one example. Traps may be a bit of a problem at times, but there are ways around that (Find traps spells, care in exploration.) Overall, that would be a fairly well balanced party in my view.
Or maybe Barbarian, Bard, Druid and Sorcerer. Again, some minor issues, but really not a horribly balanced group I don't think. The druid may have some trouble keeping up with damage taken by the barbarian, but a bard can suppliment healing at times to help with that.
Most games I've played in have had more or less than the 'standard' 4 characters, mostly 3 or 5 players at any given time. If a group is lacking in one area, you have to put some consideration into balancing that, though creativity and some luck can help them get through even unbalanced encounters.
I feel that the core classes are balanced well to suit differing styles of play. If a group wanted to run with all 4 characters being Bards and Rogues, then they would be very limited in some respects. But the nature of the characters and their knowledge of their abilities should lend itself to their seeking adventures suited to their abilities.
Director of Narrative
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I've played a side game where we were all rogues, and things have worked out fine. We also did a game with all spellcasters. The only thing needed is a fresh view on the game and a different way to act. The only thing that throws off balance is the players. Any group of well thought out and well played characters, regardless of class, can attempt and defeat a task. ANY task in my opinion. Successful ones take proper actions for their class. As was said earlier, stealth and magic using characters will not engage giants; the preferable course of action is that the giants never even knew they were there until it's too late.
"Meat shields" as ya'll call them can easily and cheaply be replaced by mercs. Rogues (and any other skillful class) can use magic items. A party without a cleric can stock up on wands/potions of curing/restoration.
Role-play is essentially that. If a player/all players want to play a difficult theme for what you have in mind and your plot/theme isn't a specific storyline, then by all means modify your story to accomodate your players. It is much easier for a DM to tweak something than a player and they are the ones that look to us for the fun that they have at our in frequent and all to short games.
Are the classes balanced? No. What are you looking for? Get a copy of "Buy the Numbers" from RPG.Now. It's not a cure-all, but it helps.