Suppose you want a real challenge and you decided to play a human wizard with an Intelligence of 4. Let's also say you're leveling him up from level 2 to level 3 (though I'm not sure how you've survived this long).
When calculating skill points, do you receive:
2 (wizard) + 1 (human) = 3 minus 3 (Int penalty) = the minimim 1
or
2 (wizard) minus 3 (Int penalty) = the minimum 1 + 1 (human) = 2
or
2 (wizard) minus 3 (Int penalty) = -1 + 1 (human) = the minimum 1
?
I'm looking for official rulings and/or quotes from sourcebooks, not houserules or opinions. Thanks!
-Amber S.
PHB, pg. 23, in the class section, the paragraph regarding skills:
"A character gets some number of skill points at each level depending on the class in question...To this number, apply the character's Intelligence modifier (and 1 bonus point, if human) to determine total skill points... but always at least 1 skill point per level, even for a character with an Intelligence penalty."
As such, following the instructions,
Character gets some number of skill points: 2
Apply the INT modifier(-3) and 1 bonus point, if human: 2+ -3 + 1, which would equal 0.
Since there is a minimum of 1 skill point, and they should have 0, it must be 1.
(Edited for Clarity)
Thanks!
I have to say that I disagree. It might not be to the exact letter and wording of the law, but I do believe it is to the spirit that the human would recieve 2 (2 -3 = 0, Minimum 1 + bonus racial skill point = 2). I have always ruled that the human skill point is added on after all other calculations so that it remains special and significant in all situations. I think it is cheating the race (no offense) to calculate it any other way.
I agree with your disagreement, but Medesha did ask for the rules as written, and not necessarily an opinion (ours) or what is against the "spirit" of the game.
I wonder what triggered the question?
Yeah, why are you building stupid human Wizards, Medesha?
How does the character know that it is a wizard? The PC barely speaks his native language and can't cast spells. The bonus crafting feats and metamagic feats are useless since he cant activate spells. It sounds like a commoner with an odd skil selection.
Actually it was the first class I could remember that got 2 skill points/level.
And I ask because a friend brought the subject up and I was curious. :-)
I usually do it the other way (humans get a minimum of 2 skill points/level) just because I'm the DM and I say so that's why!!!!
-Amber S.
because I'm the DM and I say so that's why!!!!
-Amber S.
THATS NOT FAIR!...................(Huffs to room and slams door)
Yeah, well, you just stay in there and think about what I said!
-Amber S.
Oooo, oooo! I wanna be a human in Medesha's game.
Two skill points. I'm in heaven ...
You know Medesha, that's a funny thing that you brought that up. I was asking myself the EXACT same thing last weekend. So you DM and do telepathy?
Ultradan
It's gotta be the snakes...they're all, hypnotic and stuff...
I think it is cheating the race (no offense) to calculate it any other way.
In all fairness, if this unlikely situation were to arise, you would actually be rewarding a player for taking a low score by nullifying one of the penalties it provides. Is it really fair, or realistic, to say that a Dwarf Fighter with an Intelligence of 10(2 skill points per level) would have the same amount of skill points as a Human Wizard with an Int of 4? Does that make any kind of sense? If a player had such a low score, they should incur all of the penalties associated with it.
I say it does make sense, at it is the core concept of the race that they are more skillful than anyone else given the same abilities.
I say it does make sense, at it is the core concept of the race that they are more skillful than anyone else given the same abilities.
True but it also makes sense that a character with the mind of a simpleton would not be able to take advantage of it. Much like a gnome with low charisma can't use his spell like abilities.
The core concept remains the same, so long as they have the "same" abilities.
However it seems completly up to the Dm's descretion AND it is a very rare scenario.
While not official, this might carry some weight ...
Spotted on Sean K Reynolds' site that in his notes clarifying things left vague in the PHB, that for racial abilities, the human skill bonus is applied after the ability penalty.
I say it does make sense, at it is the core concept of the race that they are more skillful than anyone else given the same abilities.
Since the average human IQ is like 100, lets say that every point of INT is 10 IQ points. You think that a person with an IQ of 40 (severly mentally retarded) could be as skilled as one who is average, just because they are a human?
This is akin to saying a character with Darkvision can see, even if he was blind, as long as it was dark. Even though the benefit is integral to what they do, it cannot override such a serious defiency.
I say it does make sense, at it is the core concept of the race that they are more skillful than anyone else given the same abilities.Since the average human IQ is like 100, lets say that every point of INT is 10 IQ points. You think that a person with an IQ of 40 (severly mentally retarded) could be as skilled as one who is average, just because they are a human?
This is akin to saying a character with Darkvision can see, even if he was blind, as long as it was dark. Even though the benefit is integral to what they do, it cannot override such a serious defiency.
It depends.
I worked closely with the developmentally disabled for nearly 6 years in Indianapolis. I've known many, many people without alot of intellectual capacity who could still Bluff, Intimidate, Hide, Perform (music), Sense Motives, and do Sleight of Hand manuvers (good ones too), among other skills.
There are plenty of people diagnosed with Moderate to Severe MR who can still be incredibly diplomatic and perceptive. If you were raised in an institution in the old days, those were survival skills. . . to be used against fickle, abusive, and unsympathetic paid caretakers.
Overall, I would say that it depends on the variety of your upbringing, as well as your intelligence. Cultural diverstiy in humans is what the bonus skills and feats are all about.
I worked closely with the developmentally disabled for nearly 6 years in Indianapolis.
I have also worked in that field, and I understand what you are saying. This is D&D, though.
One must realize that being able to use a skill and having the kind of training evident in possessing ranks are different. anyone can Hide, and Search; the kind of training that separates untrained tries to skill ranks are different.
Beyond that, the number of skill points one has is their possibility for training in those skills. They have the potential to learn skills to that extent. A disabled person with training could be lvl 2 or 3 as say, a commoner, which would explain ranks.
In the end, I still look to balance. If a character has such a low score, the penalty exists to reinforce having that low of a score. An score being that low has to be a penalty. Giving 2 skill points nullifies one of the penalties.
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Suppose you want a real challenge and you decided to play a human wizard with an Intelligence of 4. ...
One question - doesn't a wizard need an "Intelligence score of 10 + the spell's level" to cast a spell? I am pretty sure he has to and therefore the whole issue is void (do you say so in english?).
Or maybe I just got your question wrong...
Chris, thanks oh-so-much for saying that you 'worked' with said people instead of 'played' or 'gamed' with them :)
Wonder what Chairborne Ranger would say about this....hmmm.
Chairborne Ranger is too developmentally disabled to type these days...