In earlier editions of the game I seem to recall that a cleric's choice of greater/lesser gods as patron diety affected the level of spells that the cleric could learn. Does this still hold true?
Also, are there any "hard and fast" rules for a cleric changing dieties due to some crisis of faith and/or alignment change? I have a high level cleric who "lost the faith" through some good roleplaying and wants to change dieties - I like the sincerity of the character, but I wonder how badly should I penalize them?
In earlier editions of the game I seem to recall that a cleric's choice of greater/lesser gods as patron diety affected the level of spells that the cleric could learn. Does this still hold true?
Also, are there any "hard and fast" rules for a cleric changing dieties due to some crisis of faith and/or alignment change? I have a high level cleric who "lost the faith" through some good roleplaying and wants to change dieties - I like the sincerity of the character, but I wonder how badly should I penalize them?
So far as I am aware, there is no limit to the level of spells that a Deity can grant if they have at least a Divine Rank of 0. That may or not be the case (no books right now), but I believe it to be so.
As for changing deities - there is something in the PHB about that, that it's a bad thing (tm), and carries some consequenses. Since it's never happened in my campaigns I have no idea what the actual rules say, however, IMHO the New deity would be happy to have this new convert but might need some convincing as to their moral make-up. I would prevent access to the highest level spells normally available to the priest for at least half a level and probably for a full level. Either that or some holy pilgrimage.
Roleplaying this correctly should not even be that difficult for you or your player due to the acts that go him there in the first place. It just strikes me as odd that if a 15th level cleric decides one day that he no longer wants to worship Bane and wants to transfer worship to Lanthander, he gets the full indoctrination of the Church - without the need to attone, give up possible lingering moral views, etc - including all the privilages, spells, access to special feats, etc.
Just a thought.
There is a cleric spell called Atonement that can pretty easily handle the conversion part. I would handle it this way: when the cleric truly hits his crisis of faith (as decided by you and the player) his god strips him of his spellcasting, domain powers, and turn/rebuke abilities as his deity realizes his faith is gone. He keeps his weapon/armor proficiencies and other abilities based on pure training and physical ability. Then, he would have to approach a ranking high priest of whatever new faith he wishes to join, seeking an Atonement spell to alter his alignment and devote his training and faith to the new god. The clergy would be well within their rights to demand an offering and/or quest to prove his commitment and worthiness (this would be made more difficult for him without access to his usual clerical powers), but upon completion, he receives the Atonement and is welcomed into the new church. Of course, the nature of the offering/quest depends on the church he wishes to join.
Nice one VedicCold, that is a good mix of mechanics and roleplaying.
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Thanks. Ever since I started DMing, I've tried to find ways to make the mechanics blend in with storytelling and RP so that each enhances the other. I really like Clerics, too, so I've put a lot of thought into how one can be played. A priest suffering a crisis of faith is such a good opportunity for roleplay and character building that I think a real story can and should be made out of it.
If anyone's played Final Fantasy 2/4, Cecil starts out as a dark knight and becomes a paladin. On Mt Ordeal, he has to fight his dark half to "let go" of it and be able to use healing abilities and all that fun. (Mind you, Mt Ordeal is full of undead creatures that aren't affected by your dark knight weapons - they laugh at you a lot.)
A similar process could be required of a cleric switching gods. No use of clerical abilities, beyond the previously stated learned/physical abilities - a quest! An epic quest!
I'm pretty sure you get the idea. :-D
I don't think there is a hard and fast rule, but every source I have ever seen supports the "Atonement" plan: Lose current god-granted powers, perform quest for new church, get Atonement, regain lost powers and select new deity-specific domains. Depending on the level of the cleric, the quest needed will vary.
I would actually say that the higher level the cleric, the less he needs to prove his commitment, since he's been with his other god so long and now wishes to switch. Lower level clerics might just be being wishy-washy. This would work for deities of non-opposed alignments, such as a priest of Kord starting to worship Pelor. Erythnul to Heironeous (or vice versa) is going to be much more difficult, to say the least, if the new faith will even let you do it.
Thanks for the input. Fortunately, the change in question is nothing so vast as the Heironeus/Erythnul example...same alignment, just another side of the coin.
On a slight tangent, how about a cleric who forms a sect or cult within the current diety's church. Case in point: a high level cleric of Rao (Peace, Reason, Serenity) sees her home and friends decimated in the Greyhawk Wars and questions how people loyal to Rao could be so brutalized. She further sees that those who followed the teachings of Heironeous maintained their civility (same alignment) but their more proactive approach spared them the worst of it (Irongate survived because it took the offensive, as opposed to Onnwal which was crushed). Complete Divine, though, does say that clerics of Rao take a direct approach to attempt to restore peace and will pound "unreasoning" creatures like undead into dust...what if, instead of switching dieties, she simply started a more militant splinter cult within the church of Rao, perhaps with Glory and Sun domains instead of Community and Purification? Just trying to figure out which we be the more fun way of screwing with the campaign world.
Thanks for the input. Fortunately, the change in question is nothing so vast as the Heironeus/Erythnul example...same alignment, just another side of the coin.
On a slight tangent, how about a cleric who forms a sect or cult within the current diety's church. Case in point: a high level cleric of Rao (Peace, Reason, Serenity) sees her home and friends decimated in the Greyhawk Wars and questions how people loyal to Rao could be so brutalized. She further sees that those who followed the teachings of Heironeous maintained their civility (same alignment) but their more proactive approach spared them the worst of it (Irongate survived because it took the offensive, as opposed to Onnwal which was crushed). Complete Divine, though, does say that clerics of Rao take a direct approach to attempt to restore peace and will pound "unreasoning" creatures like undead into dust...what if, instead of switching dieties, she simply started a more militant splinter cult within the church of Rao, perhaps with Glory and Sun domains instead of Community and Purification? Just trying to figure out which we be the more fun way of screwing with the campaign world.
In this specific example how about having the character ask his superiors if he can form a more assertive sect. Then have an equal level cleric of Rao speak out against such brash actions.
As a god of reason the god would want a prolonged test. (to make shure the cleric is devoted and not simply blinded by an emotional responce to a bad situation)I would say that each cleric is sent to the area of crisis, an undead infested marsh, a plauged town, a corrupt city filled with theives. Give each cleric jurisdiction over half the area, and a team of their personal choice (the rest of the party) and one year to do as much good as possible to help the community. To be granted his request he must surpass his opponent in good works and he must prove that his new ideals were a key factor in his success
In this specific example how about having the character ask his superiors if he can form a more assertive sect. Then have an equal level cleric of Rao speak out against such brash actions.
As a god of reason the god would want a prolonged test. (to make shure the cleric is devoted and not simply blinded by an emotional responce to a bad situation)I would say that each cleric is sent to the area of crisis, an undead infested marsh, a plauged town, a corrupt city filled with theives. Give each cleric jurisdiction over half the area, and a team of their personal choice (the rest of the party) and one year to do as much good as possible to help the community. To be granted his request he must surpass his opponent in good works and he must prove that his new ideals were a key factor in his success
Nice :)
I've never had need to know THE RULES on changing deities. My idea of the gods is that they are omniscient with respect to their followers; a priest who has had a change of heart would therefore be readily accepted by his new deity. Mortals on the other hand, are harder to please because they do not know as their god does that the 'new convert' is not a priest from an opposed church in disguise. So, a newly converted priest should have his new god's spells and abilities but should be required by his new church to complete some task in order to prove his devotion. (or else be distrusted, hated or even hunted by his new church)
A cleric who wants to start a new sect of his faith should find himself in a similar situation. Again, his god knows that he is sincere but his superiors should require proof that he is not 'falling from the faith' into another or into madness.
I've never had need to know THE RULES on changing deities. My idea of the gods is that they are omniscient with respect to their followers; a priest who has had a change of heart would therefore be readily accepted by his new deity. Mortals on the other hand, are harder to please because they do not know as their god does that the 'new convert' is not a priest from an opposed church in disguise. So, a newly converted priest should have his new god's spells and abilities but should be required by his new church to complete some task in order to prove his devotion. (or else be distrusted, hated or even hunted by his new church)
A cleric who wants to start a new sect of his faith should find himself in a similar situation. Again, his god knows that he is sincere but his superiors should require proof that he is not 'falling from the faith' into another or into madness.
In my campaigns I couldn't do that. My characters constantly use Commune to speak with their deities. If the gods are all knowing concerning their followers thoughts and intentions then it would be a logical step for a cleric to simply ask if a follower was sincere. Scratch that if they were not sincere then the god would already know not to grant them spells. Thats a dead givaway right there if they can't cast a domain spell or a spell with an alignment issue.
I think keeping the gods from being perfect adds more to the campaign. After all, had Vecna known of Kas'intentions he would never have lost his hand and eye.
Thanks for the input. Fortunately, the change in question is nothing so vast as the Heironeus/Erythnul example...same alignment, just another side of the coin.
On a slight tangent, how about a cleric who forms a sect or cult within the current diety's church. Case in point: a high level cleric of Rao (Peace, Reason, Serenity) sees her home and friends decimated in the Greyhawk Wars and questions how people loyal to Rao could be so brutalized. She further sees that those who followed the teachings of Heironeous maintained their civility (same alignment) but their more proactive approach spared them the worst of it (Irongate survived because it took the offensive, as opposed to Onnwal which was crushed). Complete Divine, though, does say that clerics of Rao take a direct approach to attempt to restore peace and will pound "unreasoning" creatures like undead into dust...what if, instead of switching dieties, she simply started a more militant splinter cult within the church of Rao, perhaps with Glory and Sun domains instead of Community and Purification? Just trying to figure out which we be the more fun way of screwing with the campaign world.
In this specific example how about having the character ask his superiors if he can form a more assertive sect. Then have an equal level cleric of Rao speak out against such brash actions.
As a god of reason the god would want a prolonged test. (to make shure the cleric is devoted and not simply blinded by an emotional responce to a bad situation)I would say that each cleric is sent to the area of crisis, an undead infested marsh, a plauged town, a corrupt city filled with theives. Give each cleric jurisdiction over half the area, and a team of their personal choice (the rest of the party) and one year to do as much good as possible to help the community. To be granted his request he must surpass his opponent in good works and he must prove that his new ideals were a key factor in his success
True, but most schisms don't happen nearly so peaceably, at least in our real history. Of course, we don't have alignments as absolutes and a pantheon of gods that let their followers call down fire from the sky!
So, I can see a deity such as Rao having such a peaceable fractioning, but I'd also say that would be an extremely rare thing. Lawful deities, even lawful good ones, would probably not take kindly to such things, while chaotic ones would have a near endless stream of various interpretations of dogma and other individual sects.
As far as giving the cleric his own area to tend to for a while, this might not be taken to very well the campaign in question uses the standard lore concerning Triel/Beelzebub, who was granted the same privelege and experitment and ended up making Hell in Heaven. The clerics would surely know that story and be hesitant to set up a situation in which it would be repeated.
Interesting thread. Couple thoughts: First, I would imagine that the cleric's old church would not be happy to see him go, and would work to kill him or at least thwart his schemes. If your campaign goes this direction, I hope you'll share the outcome with us. It sounds like fun. Second, I think a cleric operating without spells should get an XP bonus, for two reasons: 1) they got no powers! 2) good roll-playing put them in this position, and they deserve a reward.
My fisrt question is what world are you playing in. In Forgoten Realms a cleric can switch gods farly easly. I am not sure how but I remember reading about it in the campain setting and reading about a cleric who promoted lots of different gods. I am not sure who though. Now in Eberron a cleric can do vertualy anything and not fall out of favor with a church. If the cleric is just a cleric of a cause and picked any two domains then I would not see why he could not change his cause with the right RPing. If this is some homebrew campain then its up to the DM what happons when a cleric changes gods.
This is in a slightly "non-canon" Greyhawk campaign. Since she's currently a cleric of Rao, the displeasure of her god is a far bigger issue than (I think) any retribution by the church.
As far as starting up an offshoot cult, the question becomes whether or not Rao could grant her accessto altered domains anyway. Does the diety in question limit their faithful to certain domains or does the diety in question only have the access to those domains?
IMO, such a cleric need only fear their deity's reaction if their actions actually displease the deity.
So, if you decide Rao doesn't like the fact that his cleric is trying to create a more militant sect, this is easily handled by first sending dreams and visions to point out it's the wrong path, and ultimately yanking the cleric's powers if they don't amend their ways. If the cleric truly believes in his new outlook and his faith can falter and he can feel spurned by his deity. And maybe go looking elsewhere.
However, if you decide the deity is at least intrigued enough to give this radical cleric a shot, then their biggest worry becomes the church. The church can censure them, lock them up, kick them out, or whatever they feel is necessary to punish the blasphemous radical. Just because the deity is intrigued doesn't mean he'll sheild his radical cleric. That could be part of the test, after all.
When it comes to what domains a deity can grant, generally they can only grant those domains associated with them. This, however, is up to you as the DM. It could be a hard and fast limitation of the deity's power, a personal preference that won't be broken without good reason, or a 'guideline' that fits their portfolio.
Ultimately, I think what such a sect would be achieving for the deity would be an expansion of the portfolio. Depending on how you think the diety's power is limited (or not), along with its personal preference, they could grant the new domains right away, or only after truly establishing the new sect as a stable sect of the faith.