| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just wondering if anyone else had been having the same irritating problem as me.
We have a really charismatic and smart player in our group and, for better or worse, people tend to defer to him when making plans (that and he is usually right). However, he does not always play the most charismatic or smart character. This is compounded when other PCs take feats such as Leadership; you would expect such characters to have a more forceful personality with the expectation of having their suggestions/orders followed.
The question is how should a DM who does not award ad hoc XP bonuses/penalties deal with such a PC without stomping around saying 'you would listen to player X and trust them more than player Y'?
Just wondering if anyone else had been having the same irritating problem as me.
We have a really charismatic and smart player in our group and, for better or worse, people tend to defer to him when making plans (that and he is usually right). However, he does not always play the most charismatic or smart character. This is compounded when other PCs take feats such as Leadership; you would expect such characters to have a more forceful personality with the expectation of having their suggestions/orders followed.
The question is how should a DM who does not award ad hoc XP bonuses/penalties deal with such a PC without stomping around saying 'you would listen to player X and trust them more than player Y'?
There's a very similar thread titled "Charisma checks against players" that you might check out. Not quite the same thing, but I bet a lot of the discussion will overlap.
There's a very similar thread titled "Charisma checks against players" that you might check out. Not quite the same thing, but I bet a lot of the discussion will overlap.
Thanks, I was trying to avoid a divergence in the original topic of that thread. But I'll post the question there anyway and see what happens.
|
I have been in similar situations, from both sides of the screen. I guess it is human nature.
The way we have dealt with it is by speaking to the charismatic person away from the group and explaining ths situation. In that case they usually deal with it well and would roleplay properly. Comments like "don't look at me, I have no clue" or suggesting ridiculous courses of action make it clear that the character, unlike the player, doesn't have the stuff of leaders. The rest of the players usually catch on and act accordingly.
The problem that I find more serious is when a non-charismatic player plays a charsmatic-diplomatic sort. In one current group we have a half-elf with a terrific diplomacy score played by someone who is somewhat gruff and undiplomatic.
|
Hmm, I'm in a similar boat, only I'm a player.
I'm not exactly a charismatic person, especially since I am still moderately uncomfortable with roleplaying. However, I do occassionally play charistmatic characters. The problem is that my GM sometimes expects me, the person, to come up with a good lie in order to effectively use my character's bluff check, or to come up with something decent to say roleplaying-wise in order to make a Diplomacy check. I'm not good at doing that. In certain situations, other characters, with much lower checks than me, are handling the talking since they, as people, can come up with better things to say than me. And the GM doesn't even make them make a check!!!
I'm not sure exactly what to do about this.
Hmm, I'm in a similar boat, only I'm a player.
I'm not sure exactly what to do about this.
Don't worry about it. It comes with practice, it took me a bit of time to learn the ins and outs of roleplaying. Try to relax, if you are of legal age have one drink (any more and you probably just get silly), have fun.
PS I don't advocate drinking on a regular basis and you certainly don't have to drink to have fun (I don't drink ever).|
|
Try to relax, if you are of legal age have one drink (any more and you probably just get silly), have fun.
PS I don't advocate drinking on a regular basis and you certainly don't have to drink to have fun (I don't drink ever).
Unfortunately, I'm Irish and, as such, am not affected much by alcohol. But, alas, maybe I should just start in on a bottle, I'm sure that would loosen my character up a bit.
Anyways, I do know I have to relax a bit. What I'm worried about is that my inability to come up with good stuff negatively affects my character and others, with much lower character charisma than me, are filling the role that was mine to fill.
Bottom line, smart people can play dumber characters, but dumber people can't play a smarter character. It doesn't work. The same is true for wisdom and charisma-- ultimately, the only way it works is to bypass roleplaying almost entirely and use the dice rolls for everything.
Hmm, I'm in a similar boat, only I'm a player.
I'm not exactly a charismatic person, especially since I am still moderately uncomfortable with roleplaying. However, I do occassionally play charistmatic characters. The problem is that my GM sometimes expects me, the person, to come up with a good lie in order to effectively use my character's bluff check, or to come up with something decent to say roleplaying-wise in order to make a Diplomacy check. I'm not good at doing that. In certain situations, other characters, with much lower checks than me, are handling the talking since they, as people, can come up with better things to say than me. And the GM doesn't even make them make a check!!!
I'm not sure exactly what to do about this.
Stop playing "charismatic characters," since your DM doesn't play by the rules that would allow you to do so effectively.
Seriously. If you had a DM who ruled that wizards can only cast spells in noncombat situations, or that rogues can only sneak attack opponents smaller than themselves, would you play a wizard or rogue in that DM's campaign? I know I wouldn't.
|
Actually, I advocate the "Learn to fake it" path.
One way of doing this is asking the DM for permission to consult the other players for a moment out of game to get some ideas that your character has the skills for. If the DM is uncomfortable with this (or fears another player will end up running your character by remote control), ask for something like three lifelines (to borrow from a certain game show). These could be poker chips that you can redeem when put on the spot and you're stumped. This should relieve some of the pressure (always detrimental to spinning a good yarn) when things are crucial and yet allow you to work things out on your own when they're not.
Another thing to try would be to ask for some coaching from one of the other players (or the DM) or an aftergame post-mortem discussing what was tried and what could have been done differently and how. The DM should be part of this (along with some of the more supportive players) as he or she knows best what would have worked. If you try this way, take notes and reference them from time to time.
Or you could take the way I did: keep trying until you get it right and don't let other people do it for you. This can be a frustrating path in the short term, but pays off in the long term, especially if you add in some of the coaching option.
This brings up another question (which I probably should have asked first, but there you go): is the problem you don't know what to say or is it that you can't get it out of your mouth the way you hear it in your head?
|
|
Bottom line, smart people can play dumber characters, but dumber people can't play a smarter character. It doesn't work.
Ah, high Intelligence characters (and villains for that matter) played by "mere mortals"...
In the last major camapign I DMed (one year ago) I had a fine fellow play a wizard with an Intelligence of 24, but he was sadly lacking something in the "long-range planning" and "multiple plans/escape routes" avenue. Our personal solution, as a group, was to offer some honest feedback, via the players, in helping this person to develop their prepared spell lists at every session's start- with practice and friendly advice, they would gradually begin to plan ahead and realize the importance of versatility and variety.
Sadly our friend was also far too stubborn for his own good and refused the help, but perhaps he was only trying to accurately RP the accompanying Wisdom of 8? ;)
In all seriousness, though, the difficulties of being what you're not should never prevent one from having fun in a game- it really boils down to making sure your GM understands your difficulty, and making sure you aren't fully penalized for it.
Charisma is the easiest to adjudicate, given the social skills' existence (provided the GM properly uses them), while Intelligence and Wisdom are a bit harder.
Personally, if a player has a Int/Wisdom of 18+ (i.e. IQ 180 or immensely perceptive and wise) I generally allow Intelligence and Wisdom checks for such things as memory, hurling elemental spells vs. an immune foel, or making a deadly decision just after witnessing the future effects of that choice (i.e watching an individual step through a dark hole and no longer feeling their presence and not immediately leaping after them). I allow these checks for all players, really, but generally invoke them with far greater frequency for those individuals who can't fairly be expected to RP the super-human abilities of their characters. Maybe when RL has headbands of intellect +6 at an affordable cost, I'll waive this rule ;).
This is all very circumstantial, and has to be handled with care, but one of my GMs, in a epic game, was quite fair in allowing an Int or Wisdom of 30+ to grant us occasional leeway, with the group's understanding that the same standard could be applied to his own NPCs. When one is fighting a paragon mind flayer with an Int of 40, it is reasonable if it has made quite a few astounding (and out-of-game "on the fly") decisions to cope with the party's tactics :).
Bottom Line: I agree with PhysChic and Azhrei- dice rolls are very critcal in this game, and will on occasion stretch the comprehensions of GM or player ("You convinced the solar of defending orphans to do what?!"), but if we are willing to let the Diplomacy of 60 sway the actions of angels, then we should be as dedicated to a Bluff 15 convincing the thug to put his knife away before you are forced to get violent ;). And vice versa, of course :).
P.S. Just because I can't swing a halberd in real life, doesn't mean my shifter doesn't behead your dragon with one (Paraphrased Words of a wise friend- Wisdom 15? :))
|
|
Bottom line, smart people can play dumber characters, but dumber people can't play a smarter character. It doesn't work. The same is true for wisdom and charisma-- ultimately, the only way it works is to bypass roleplaying almost entirely and use the dice rolls for everything.
I agree with Magagumo in this sense. Is it really right to say to a player, "I'm sorry, but you can't put your 18 in Int. You're not smart enough?" All players should be allowed any option in the game, as long as it's offered in your game. It is wrong to limit a player's choices based on that player's ability. Even if you don't specifically tell the player he can't play a certain character, causing that player to be chased away from smart characters because he is not able to think as smartly as his character stills forces him to limit his choices.
The game is supposed to be an opportunity to experience things that we cannot necessarily experience in life, and that includes being supersmart or supercharismatic (or the ability to fly :)). So, yes, if the only way you can make the game fun and fair for everyone is to make this based more on dice rolls, then that's exactly what you should do. Obviously, it's necessary to compromise to some extent, but it's still necessary to allow your players to be who they want to be and to adjust the game sometimes in order to allow them to do that.
I had a player in my game a few years back who didn't really say much during a game. His wizard character had a high charisma (the highest in the group)and a pretty high intelligence. So when that player said something like "I try to convince the shopkeeper to lower his prices", a few rolls later his character was walking out of a store with a brand new backpack and tons of free "promotional" equipement as well as 5gp more than when he first walked in.
I'm exagerating, of course, but I did consider his character's charisma and intelligence a lot. So much so, that the charismatic PLAYER in the group would say "Maybe we should let the wizard have a talk with him...". THAT's the kind of thing you should hear from your charismatic players!!
Ultradan