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So, my players pcs travel with a redeemed villain Illithid (BoED concept) and next session chances are high, they will face a powerful vampire.
When it comes to fighting, the Illithid (Petix) will help fighting, he promised.
My problem, the EXTRACT(EX) ability entry (MM, p.187) reads, that this ability is useless against undead, among others. I am cool with an Illithid not being able to extract a brain out of a skeleton, zombie, or whatnot brainless thing - but why should this not work against a vampire, who's highly intelligent (this one is) and who definiately has a brain?!
Any ideas?
Undeads are immune to critical damage because they have no "vital points", the brain is just that and we can suppose that their intelligence, of the vampires and others undead, come from the unholy energy that powers them, no blood, no heart, no real brain....
The case is interesting because beheading a vampire kills him you can rule that "brain extracting" is a case of beheading.
...I am cool with an Illithid not being able to extract a brain out of a skeleton, zombie, or whatnot brainless thing - but why should this not work against a vampire, who's highly intelligent (this one is) and who definiately has a brain?!
Any ideas?
My take is that the vampire's brain is dead (along with the rest of the body) and no more important to its vitality/life force/whatever as its big toe.
One might argue whether or not a mind flayer can get nourishment from a dead brain, but (in the spirit of immunity from critical hits) the brain is not a vital spot.
Jack
Don't vampires have DR? If so, I would rule that the Mindflayer might not be able to bite through the back of its head.
If you do allow it, I could see this working like severing the vampire's head. I would think that if a single tenticle were attached though the vamp would go gasseous and be done with that.
You could rule that eating a vamps brain is like (probably a house rule) and makes the person a thrall of the vamp, who if then dies becomes a freewilled vampire. or something like that.
Heads and hearts evidenly do have some importance with vampire physilogy, the thing to figure out is what that is.
My take, if the brain actually manages to get extracted, the Vamp goes limp, but is still alive, and the party must then stake/cun off head/expose to sunlight/or fill the skull cavity with holy water, or the vampire will eventually regenerate its brain and close the hole in its head.
ASEO out
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Undeads are immune to critical damage ....
But it is nowhere stated, that this attack is a critical attack. Or do I miss something here?
The case is interesting because beheading a vampire kills him you can rule that "brain extracting" is a case of beheading.
I think I will do that!
Don't vampires have DR? If so, I would rule that the Mindflayer might not be able to bite through the back of its head.
Yes, (10/silver AND magic). However, I think I will rule, that the Mindflayer is able to hit him with this special attack - even if it's just for dramatical reasons.
If you do allow it, I could see this working like severing the vampire's head. I would think that if a single tenticle were attached though the vamp would go gasseous and be done with that.
This seems like a good way to rule the whole issue! The mindflayer has been a help for the pcs and the vampire is gone, but he will be back. (ops, maybe I call the vamp ARNIE ;)
Or maybe the Flayer extracts the brain, but as you all say, since the brain is no longer vital to an undead (vampire or not), he just fights on, his grinning growing more evil... That will freak my players...
Anyway, I will send this question to THE SAGE, let's see what he thinks.
I think the DR issue is important for this discussion. It solves a lot of trouble to simply say that the mind flayers tentacle attacks would not penetrate the skull of a vampire or lich. You could also say that eating the brain of an undead creature might make a mind flayer violently ill and this is something known to them. Also any vampire will just turn gaseous, as ASEO has already mentioned, so the whole issue is probably mute.
Perhaps mind flayer vampires are created when a mind flayer consumes the brain of a normal vampire. Maybe eating the brain triggers the change (Fort save or take massive Con damage and if this kills the mind flayer it turns into a mind flayer vampire).
Here are some other interesting questions to consider.
1. How do mind flayers deal with great helms or similar metal headgear? Can a mind flayer use its extract ability on such a creature without removing the headgear first?
2. Can a mind flayer extract the brain of a warforged or similar living construct?
3. Can a mind flayer extract the brain of a creature when the brain is in another place? I know of a rare spell that transfers a PCs brain into their butt. Now that would really freak out a mind flayer.
Apologies for repetition:
What's wrong with the original argument? The vampire's brain is just dead flesh, and relatively unimportant to its continued existence. That's why undead are immune to criticals -- the heart, brain, and other thing-a-ma-jigs are no longer vital organs.
Arguments about DR (to pick on just one) don't seem to be supported by the rules. The argument above is.
My two (more) cents.
Regards,
Jack
argumentative SOB :)
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Apologies for repetition:
What's wrong with the original argument? The vampire's brain is just dead flesh, and relatively unimportant to its continued existence. That's why undead are immune to criticals -- the heart, brain, and other thing-a-ma-jigs are no longer vital organs.
Arguments about DR (to pick on just one) don't seem to be supported by the rules. The argument above is.
My two (more) cents.
Regards,
Jack
argumentative SOB :)
Maybe you're right! I can just imagine the flayer probing with his tentacles and than shrivveling aways, as soon as he finds a hold... That would scare my pcs even more!
Aaaaaand: Sorry, but I've kind of not noticed your first post, otherwise I would have answered it earlier! Don't feel overseen, this happens sometimes on messageboards and wasn't intentionally! ;)
BTW the title of this thread still makes me think 'Mind Flayer extract' -- like vanilla extract, but for baking brains (or something).
Jack
Hail Adventurers! I have my own question on the extract ability as well! ^.^;
Should a veteran Mind Flayer that has lost one or more tentacles be treated differently when using the extract ability, when the text clearly states that it must make FOUR sucessful attacks with its tentacles to use EXTRACT? If so, how?
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Hail Adventurers! I have my own question on the extract ability as well! ^.^;
Should a veteran Mind Flayer that has lost one or more tentacles be treated differently when using the extract ability, when the text clearly states that it must make FOUR sucessful attacks with its tentacles to use EXTRACT? If so, how?
I had this once and ruled, that he has to make as many attacks as he has tentacles left, but for every missing tentacle it takes 1d4-1 rounds longer to extract the brain... 4 tentacles drain more than three or even two!
This might not be strictly to the rules, but it helped in my game!
What's wrong with the original argument? The vampire's brain is just dead flesh, and relatively unimportant to its continued existence. That's why undead are immune to criticals -- the heart, brain, and other thing-a-ma-jigs are no longer vital organs.
In the case of a vampire there is a precedent for the removal of the head being detrimental to the vampire. I would say:
a.) the mind flayer wants nothing to do with sucking on undead brains and therefore does NOT use this ability
b.) the mind flayer does indeed use this ability, it works, but the mind flayer is changed slightly by the eating of the undead brain (change in alignment, starts thinking about becoming an alhoon, etc.)
Although the image of a mind flayer gargling with holy water comes to mind...
Interesting ideas, all. Something else that could be interesting was a write-up I did for an illithid NPC. I gave the illithid enough class levels (fighter 5, illithid body tamer 10, psion 5, for those that are interested) so that he could make four attacks each round. Bingo! Insta-Extract! Kinda icky and creepy, really, but it works out well. With the body tamer's reach extension which gave him another 5-ft of tentacle to work with and a not-bad Strength bonus he turned into quite the impressive melee fighter.
For those that are curious, the Illithid Body Tamer prestige class is in the Forgotten Realms: Underdark book. (Sadly not in the Lords of Madness book.)