Does anyone have an answer for this?
One of my players wants to take the Sudden Widen feat from Complete Arcane, which instantly applies a Widen Spell effect to one spell once per day without having to prepare it at a higher level. He is wondering how it will affect spells like burning hands and colour spray, which are clearly burst spells but that don't have an area, but rather a range. Since the range is fixed and would not be affect by Enlarge Spell, I ruled that Sudden Widen would double the range of these spells. But the issue is muddy because they technically do not have an area, and Widen Spell increases the area of a spell. Yet the area is clearly a 15-ft cone, hence my ruling. What do you think?
He is wondering how it will affect spells like burning hands and colour spray, which are clearly burst spells but that don't have an area, but rather a range. Since the range is fixed and would not be affect by Enlarge Spell, I ruled that Sudden Widen would double the range of these spells. But the issue is muddy because they technically do not have an area, and Widen Spell increases the area of a spell. Yet the area is clearly a 15-ft cone, hence my ruling. What do you think?
Hmm, here is what the SRD has to say:
Burning Hands
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Fire 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 15 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: YesA cone of searing flame shoots from your fingertips. Any creature in the area of the flames takes 1d4 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 5d4). Flammable materials burn if the flames touch them. A character can extinguish burning items as a full-round action.
Widen Spell [Metamagic]
BenefitYou can alter a burst, emanation, line, or spread shaped spell to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the spell’s area increase by 100%.A widened spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.
Spells that do not have an area of one of these four sorts are not affected by this feat.
So, according to this, you could apply the Widen Spell feat to burning hands, because its area is described as a "cone-shaped burst." But since there are no numeric measurements listed in the spell's area, technically the feat would have no effect (there is nothing to double).
However since the size of the burst is given in the range entry of the spell, using the feat to double the listed range seems logical (if not completely supported by the RAW).
Does anyone have an answer for this?
One of my players wants to take the Sudden Widen feat from Complete Arcane, which instantly applies a Widen Spell effect to one spell once per day without having to prepare it at a higher level. He is wondering how it will affect spells like burning hands and colour spray, which are clearly burst spells but that don't have an area, but rather a range. Since the range is fixed and would not be affect by Enlarge Spell, I ruled that Sudden Widen would double the range of these spells. But the issue is muddy because they technically do not have an area, and Widen Spell increases the area of a spell. Yet the area is clearly a 15-ft cone, hence my ruling. What do you think?
If you read the Widen Spell feat it says that it does not modify any spell that does not have a burst, emanation, line or spread shaped effect. The area of burning hands is not given because its assumed that everyone knows how wide a cone is when it reaches its end, so they don't bother putting the area in. A burst shaped cone has a definite area, so the Widen Spell feat should affect all the spells you're talking about.
Its entirely up to you as the DM to decide whether to allow the feats to be used with these spells or not. If you do allow the feats to be used just don't let the players cajole you into thinking that because the area of the burning hands is now a 30-ft. burst cone it would now also have a range of 30-ft. (it makes sense, but is a serious abuse of the feat). Even the Enlarge Spell feat does not allow the range of burning hands to be changed (because its not close, medium, or long).
If you do allow the feats to be used just don't let the players cajole you into thinking that because the area of the burning hands is now a 30-ft. burst cone it would now also have a range of 30-ft. (it makes sense, but is a serious abuse of the feat). Even the Enlarge Spell feat does not allow the range of burning hands to be changed (because its not close, medium, or long).
I'm not clear on what the difference is between "30-ft. range" and "30-ft. burst cone". A spell like burning hands is centred on the caster and extends to a range of 30 feet, i.e., produces a 30-ft. cone, with the Widen Spell feat. What is the difference between saying "this spell is a burst cone with a 30-ft. range" and "this spell is a 30-ft. burst cone"? It seems like changing the area of the spell also implies the same change in its range.
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You do have to be clear that the spell always has the origin from the caster's square. It would certainly be nice if he could "start" the spell 30' away from himself.
For example, a lightning bolt can have it's origin in any square within long range (iirc), it does not have to begin or end within 60' of the caster.
I'm not clear on what the difference is between "30-ft. range" and "30-ft. burst cone". A spell like burning hands is centred on the caster and extends to a range of 30 feet, i.e., produces a 30-ft. cone, with the Widen Spell feat. What is the difference between saying "this spell is a burst cone with a 30-ft. range" and "this spell is a 30-ft. burst cone"? It seems like changing the area of the spell also implies the same change in its range.
My statement about the spell's range should have been made about the normal unaugmented burning hands spell. It was just a warning about spells like burning hands, color spray, and lightning bolt in general. Burning hands begins at the caster's fingertips (as described under the spell's entry) and extends out in a hemisphere to a range of 15-ft (hence a 15-ft cone burst). It cannot be started 15-ft away from the caster. You are completely right when you say that the Widen Spell feat would also make the cone 30-ft long. I was simply trying to clear up the range issue (albeit in a rather confusing and convoluted way that did not really clear up the issue at all).
You do have to be clear that the spell always has the origin from the caster's square. It would certainly be nice if he could "start" the spell 30' away from himself.
For example, a lightning bolt can have it's origin in any square within long range (iirc), it does not have to begin or end within 60' of the caster.
Lightning bolt has a range of 120-ft and creates a line that's 120-ft long. It always begins at the caster's fingertips. I think your talking about the 3rd edition version, not the 3.5 version.