If a stat block is for multiple creatures ie (Orc fighter 4 (18) and then list possessions as +1 longsword, does that mean each of the 18 orcs has a +1 longsword, or that there is a +1 longsword held by one of the 18 orcs?
I've noticed this a lot with higher level adventures, The Throne of Iuz for example, where if my former assumption is correct, 105 orcs have +1 tridents and +1 returning shotputs. Also 3 stone giant monks each have a type V necklace of missiles. Is this right? I guess it makes the Stat blocks easier, but this cloning of creatures and equipment seems weird in its prevalence of magical items. I can just see a party filling their bag with the 210 magical weapons just taken from the slain Orcs.(yeah, I know that underachieving parties may not kill ALL the orcs ;) )
it seems unlikely that all 3 stone giants have the exact same necklaces, and none have used any of the missiles yet.
I understand the convienvce of possession cloning and the need to make creatures a chalange for the party, but in numbers like this, it seems a bit strange. I mean if +1 tridents and +1 returning Shotputs are so common in the encampment, where are all the spairs?
Also, why not just make the foe a different stronger creature instead of giving an army identical magical weapons?
Is this cloning aspect just something that comes with submitting an adventure to DUNGEON?
Just a question.
ASEO out
Creative Director
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If a stat block for multiple creatures lists possessions, then all single creatures in that block have identical possessions. As a general rule, when a group of similar creatures appears in an adventure, the granting of duplicate magic items is little more than a space-saving tactic on the part of the editors.
Thus, there are indeed 105 +1 tridents and 105 +1 returning shotputs in "Throne of Iuz." And 105 suits of +1 breastplate to boot, along with 105 potions of cure serious wounds. On one level, each of these 105 orcs is a 9th-level character, and as a result, they certainly SHOULD be equipped with this amount of gear. But on another level... that IS a lot of magic items.
"Throne of Iuz" doesn't expect the PCs to kill & loot all 105 of these orcs, but it's certainly a possibility. If your party's systematicaly killing all the orcs in this adventure, and you're concerned (as you probably should be) about giving out about 1.25 million gp in magic weapons and gear to the party, I recomend replacing the orcs' gear with masterwork versions of their equipment.
When all's said and done, though, if a group of 4 15th level PCs kills those 105 orcs, they'll gain almost enough XP to gain a level, and the gold they gain for harvesting and reselling all that stuff ends up being only about 175% what they should have earned for gaining that level... so from a game balance point of view it's not that outlandish. Just think of that extra gold as overtime-pay for playing through a dozen or so orc battles when you could be fighting half-dragon dragons or succubus were-pirates.
succubus were-pirates
I gotta get me one of them! :D
(I wonder if my wife would mind....)
Boy, imagine my word count if I had to write 105 different stat blocks!
$$$$cha-ching$$$$
More on topic than my last post...
I generally don't find it difficult to replace equipment on the fly while running a purchased adventure. I generally treat creatures in groups, though. For example, when I run Throne of Iuz (about 8 months from now is my guess), most of the orcs will indeed be toting the tridents. However, the PCs are likely to encounter a group of 3 or 4 orcs that instead have flails, for example. The only difference between the two weapons is the type of damage (piercing for the trident, bludgeoning for the flail). Others might have longsword (though they have a better crit range); others still might have warhammers (a better crit multiplier). The goal will be to get as close to the same stats as possible - so I have less work to do, but can give different baddies a different flavor.
Things like armor really don't bother me. If an entire outfit such as this band of orcs all have the same armor, I just shrug and move on. I might take some of the shot puts and change them from returning to some other +1 ability - but then, maybe I won't. Or, I might have the PCs encounter 10 orcs at once. Five of those orcs don't have any shot puts, the other five each have 2 +1 returning shot puts. The 5 throwers stay away and pepper the party with ranged attacks while the other 5 close to melee. In this case, I'm likely to go just about any direction with the melee weapon used by the ranged attackers - since it likely won't come into play. Now I've gone and made 10 of the orcs feel unique, even though I really haven't changed anything at all about the module.
I'm really looking forward to running this module - the general theme fits in beautifully with my campaign, with just a slight tweak to create a campaign specific plot hook. One of my PCs is a ranger with orc and giant as his favored enemies so far. My PCs are only 7th level, though. It'll be a little while before they get here. I'm guessing 8 or 9 months, but it might take longer.
Boy, imagine my word count if I had to write 105 different stat blocks!
$$$$cha-ching$$$$
Way true! But why not just pick a higher CR foe that doesn't rewuire the magical weapons and armor to challange the party?
I can see a perty using magical loot on this scale to outfit their own army. It also just doesn't seem right for the "Raider" Orcs to be all dressed uniformly. Even giving the orcs each a +1 weapon that does d8 damage would have shaken things up a bit. and they could have all been templated half-crab orcs so that they had natural ACs to do away with the need for all that magic armor. With rewards of an additional 75% more magical items...who wouldn't hunt the orcs down.
Still, Great Adventure!
ASEO out
I picked orcs because I wanted to do something with the Orcblood racial feature. Really, no other reason than wanting to give a boost to all those players who've been waiting for that ability to pay off for them.
I had actually made a couple of proposals to Dungeon, all trying to make the Orcblood feature a key component in the adventure.
One plot that was rejected: An orc warband infects the personnel at an elf-run wilderness outpost with rabies. The orcs are immune to the disease (as are half-orcs with the orcblood feature). The PCs must help the elves, defeat the warband and stop any further spread of the disease.
I think I even had a "rabies" template built.
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Originally, I had proposed that the "Orcblood" weapon quality be an effect that allowed only orcs or those with the orcblood racial ability able to activate the magic in them. That would have cut down the PCs ability to resell the items, especially if EVERYTHING the orcs possessed was this "Orcblood Version 1 Weapon/Magic Item Quality". (BTW -- That's why the Slaad were in the adventure -- to build a buttload of weapons for the orc army.)
You could certainly do that if you don't want to give out that much treasure. By making it Orcblood, a good adventurer would pretty much be obligated to destroying these "weapons of evil."
Another way to keep the orcs properly equipped for their CR and limit the value of the total haul of magic items is to account for the sheer volume. James Jacobs said that the armor and weapons comprise roughly 175% of the suggested treasure for 4 15th level PCs. What is the party going to do? Lug 218 magical weapons and 109 magical suits of armor to the nearest blacksmith? Even in a huge city, it would be difficult for someone to raise the coin needed to buy the gear ... if they were paying 1/2 market value. I'd suggest a 75% bulk discount.
That's why I buy my Lucky Charms in bulk at Sam's Club ... magical deliciousness at low, low prices.
And I much prefer stat cloning to the old "22 Hill Giants (hp:42, 41, 4x39, 38, 7x37, 5x35, ...)".
Originally, I had proposed that the "Orcblood" weapon quality be an effect that allowed only orcs or those with the orcblood racial ability able to activate the magic in them. That would have cut down the PCs ability to resell the items, especially if EVERYTHING the orcs possessed was this "Orcblood Version 1 Weapon/Magic Item Quality"....
Cool idea. Making the objects racially alligned would definately cut down on the value and infuse the army with that "these guys have abyssal help" element. What about a trait for Orc Blood armor, that causes discomfort (say a rash, open sores, blisters) and some sort of -2 to AC or something to those of non Orc blood, but graints the appropriate plusses to Orcs. I reall like this idea.
What is the party going to do? Lug 218 magical weapons and 109 magical suits of armor to the nearest blacksmith? Even in a huge city, it would be difficult for someone to raise the coin needed to buy the gear ... if they were paying 1/2 market value. I'd suggest a 75% bulk discount.
My gaming group currently has a keep, and is building a small city state (coutracy of the outstanding module "The Gryphon's Legacy" by the Wolfgang Baur published by the now missing Gasslight Press. This kind of armor and weaponary, carried via teleport and bags of holding would do great things for their local military force. Why sell it when you...or your minions can use it. My players like to have minions.
ASEO out
At the end of the day, what's an extra +1 to hit or damage to a 15th level PC? You could ditch ALL the magic tridents and I doubt there'd be a noticeable change in the challenge. Even if the character's surrounded by 8 orcs with +1 weapons, and every one of them hits, that's only an extra 8 points of damage.
It's mostly to avoid the mass-produced feel of magic items that I'll cut out a lot of the magic I find in published adventures. My rule of thumb is to ditch anything noticeably less powerful than what the party has. If Their fighter's running around with a +3 sword, a +1 trident is just going to wind up on the storeroom shelf. If they really need a +1 trident, their 15th level wizard can make one.
And for what it's worth, I like the use of orcs in this adventure. Just as I don't like a plethora of magic items around my campaign (and tell me, Hefe, what is a plethora?), I also don't like a flood of different races populating the local area. Any time one of the main evil races can be used to good effect like this, I'm for it.
My players like minions.
My players like cash and adventuring. We tried a minions / keep storyline in the last campaign, and they got bored. If there was a machine which would eat a minion and spit out a platinum piece, these guys would have it.
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Creative Director
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Actually, one of the weird things about making the orcs' magic weapons usable only by orcs is that it wouldn't really lower the resale value. Sure, humans and elves wouldn't want to buy them, but they'd be just as valuable to orcs (or half-orcs, for that matter) as ever. Perhaps MORE so, since they could carry these weapons into battle and not worry that their enemies could profit from any weapons they stole. If a group of 15th level PCs want to sell 210 weapons, forcing them to seek out a specific race to sell them to isn't going to slow down the profit.
This is one of the main reasons that the concept of drow weapons that disintigrate in the sun took so long to get translated into the 3rd edition rules... would a weapon that your enemies can't use be less or more valuable to others of your own race? More valuable.
Of course, forcing the PCs to disguise themselves as orcs and infiltrate an orc city to sell 210 magic orc weaponsand then forcing them to explain to the curious orc general who buys them for his army just where the PCs came across these weapons might make for a really cool adventure. One beyond "Throne of Iuz's" scope, though.
It's tangential to the point of the thread, but I find it far more disturbing that there are 200 odd 9th level orcs just hanging around in the Vesve forest than that they all have minor magic weapons. I mean, surely they'd be able to swarm out and crush all of those armies of 1st level warriors the DMG describes in half an hour or so and rule GreyHawk before tea-time.
M
It's tangential to the point of the thread, but I find it far more disturbing that there are 200 odd 9th level orcs just hanging around in the Vesve forest than that they all have minor magic weapons. I mean, surely they'd be able to swarm out and crush all of those armies of 1st level warriors the DMG describes in half an hour or so and rule GreyHawk before tea-time.
M
I wasn't going to mention that... ;-)
ASEO out
It's tangential to the point of the thread, but I find it far more disturbing that there are 200 odd 9th level orcs just hanging around in the Vesve forest than that they all have minor magic weapons. I mean, surely they'd be able to swarm out and crush all of those armies of 1st level warriors the DMG describes in half an hour or so and rule GreyHawk before tea-time.
M
This was actually my biggest beef (of several) with an old high-level Ravenloft adventure called "Thoughts of Darkness". Obviously the encounters need to be challenging, but one of the encounters (and a few random encounters) was 8 15th level drow fighters. I know it's fantasy, but I couldn't stop wondering how a total of 30 or so 15th level drow fighters became cooperative travellers on a demiplane of fear. Wouldn't there be power struggles, house affiliations, or infighting? You'd never find 30 good-aligned 15th level adventurers hanging out together in the wild, let alone chaotic evil ones.
When I read that there were 200+ high level orc fighters, the same doubts crept in, but to be fair, I haven't read the adventure yet.
I mean, surely they'd be able to swarm out and crush all of those armies of 1st level warriors the DMG describes in half an hour or so and rule GreyHawk before tea-time.
M
Well, it's a good thing there's swarms of eager adventurers to stop them! :)