And don't forget millionaire friends who gamble in Vegas…and his very own Munchkin Card…and an anti-fan club…and invites to private games with Steve Jackson…and a true love of Steve Jackson Games…Yawn
ASEO out
500
And don't forget millionaire friends who gamble in Vegas…and his very own Munchkin Card…and an anti-fan club…and invites to private games with Steve Jackson…and a true love of Steve Jackson Games…Yawn
ASEO out
500
Yeah - but we won't hold those things against him. :P
And don't forget millionaire friends who gamble in Vegas…and his very own Munchkin Card…and an anti-fan club…and invites to private games with Steve Jackson…and a true love of Steve Jackson Games…Yawn
ASEO out
500
During the golden age of gaming, right around the time first edition switched to 2nd edition (and in my opinion the beginning of TSR's slide) my favorite non-game moment from any convention I have attended happened. A group of friends and I were standing in the lobby of the hotel where the convention was being held. Our DM's brother comes in through the lobby's glass doors with a non-gaming friend in tow. As it happened a gamer had the misfortune of bumping into the friend as they made their way into the lobby.
"Get outta the way, Geek!" The friend being a rather large person didn't do much to avoid contact and the gamer sort of spun out through the doors.
"Hey! That's Steve Jackson!" One of my friends said almost incredulous that some amount of respect wasn't deserved.
The immediate reply was almost prophetic if not surprising, "Who the hell is Steve Jackson?"
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I can understand that trying to schedule a game is difficult. An article talking about those difficulties in some form of "constructive" way would also be good.
But I have to say, that as a gamer, eventually you should commit to a game. Whether it's once a month, or bi-monthly, or twice a week, you can't game if you're not committed to gaming.
Now, whether Wil could or should be playing really doesn't concern me. However, if he has been chosen to write this column as a "famous gamer" it would really help if he actually played the game.
I don't care if he fakes it. Just so long as he does it well. If he can throw in a few "at last night's session".
It has been obvious to me that Wil hadn't played in a while. Confirmation is great. It makes me feel real smart. But it also leaves me very disappointed.
I don't care if he fakes it. Just so long as he does it well.
For some reason, I'm suddenly reminded of the movie When Harry Met Sally. :-)
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I've made a number of posts on this thread. Generally, they do a good job of indicating that I'm not fond of Wil Save. Now, however, I have to say that the most recent column has left me enraged.
Now, the reason may not be obvious to everyone, so I'll take a moment to explain what his column was about, before I explain my reaction. In the previous issue Wil complained that it was hard to make time to play D&D. For the last year he has been trying to play with his stepson and it hasn't worked out. This month Wil explains that even when the opportunity presents itself, Wil has refused on the grounds that he doesn't have anything prepared. Well, Wil was upset at himself, so he borrowed the adventure "The Orc and the Pie" and ran his stepson through it.
Now, I understand not having a lot of time to prepare a game. I also subscribe to Dungeon. Does Wil even know what magazine he's writing for? Has he ever read it? Doesn't he realize it is full of quality adventures ready to run? Has he heard of the Shackled City Adventure Path, or the new Age of Worms?
I'd love to hear his explanation. Maybe he doesn't like running pre-made adventures (but then, why did he download and use the "Orc & the Pie?) or maybe he thinks Dungeon adventures are pretty pathetic.
I've come to think his column is what's pretty pathetic.
Ok, so I have perused this thread occasionally since it started. Now, I can understand not liking Wil Save, I don't like some things that end up in the magazine too. But their are a few people who REALLY don't like it and some that have even not bought it because of it. Not bought the magazine because of 1 page....1 page? That is just dumb. Sorry, but it is. I never read Downer, it contributes nothing to my games, and it is 2!! PAGES!! How do I justify such a travesty! 2 whole pages that I don't like, whatever will I do...whoa is me, how shall I ever get through the day?/end sarcasm/
The argument that it does not contribute to your game is a lame one, neither does Mt. Zogonia, or the ads for that matter. I personally like Wil Save, and if it brings more people to the magazine, and by extension to our game tables, than more power to Wil. I can just about guarantee, and I say this only because Erik pretty much confirmed it, that Wil brings more readers than he actually chases away. That is good business, and good business is good for Dungeon Magazine, as bad business would quickly see the end of our beloved Dungeon. And nobody here wants that.
Will is a hack. He doesn't know enough about D&D or even DUNGEON magazine to contribute to either. If he had pulled out an issue of DUNGEON and DM'ed his kid through an adventure, then I'd give him some credit. Instead, he takes the easy out. He runs his stepkid through an "Adventure" that let the kid roll the dice three times. Initiative, To Hit, Damage. In less than 30 seconds it was over. That's not D&D. If he is to busy to play with his kids, he should give up writing Wil Save to spend some real quality time with them. Hell, just using the time he spends on Wil Save would add at least 15 minutes to his busy schedule as an aspiring author.
Will needs to do 3 things.
1. Identify his audience (Read DUNGEON a time or two. This would actually give you something to DM for your kid as well)
2. Chose what is important to him and make time for that.
3. Be a dad and spend some time with your kid if you actually want to.
ASEO out
Until Wil Save sucks next month. Please prove me wrong.
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... He runs his stepkid through an "Adventure" that let the kid roll the dice three times. Initiative, To Hit, Damage. In less than 30 seconds it was over. That's not D&D...
I haven't read the article where he is writing about this and I don't know how old his kids are, but I can still remember my first contact with D&D - I couldn't have cared less about the rules or how things work fine together with the big frame-work around the whole system (don't know if you understand what I want to say here, because I lack some of the english words...).
I didn't care why I hit something, it was just cool to experience this kind of game, and my first DM (a veteran already in the mid-80s) has done almost the same to get me introduced to the game. It was much later, that I realized what realy is behind the rules and what possibilities there are.In earlier days, D&D was far less a science than it is nowadays, and regardless of the rules, D&D was/is/and will always be FUN! At least for me...
If his kids had fun with this "adventure" than he's done EVERYTHING right!
I still like his column...
He runs his stepkid through an "Adventure" that let the kid roll the dice three times. Initiative, To Hit, Damage. In less than 30 seconds it was over.
Correction: he gave his kid surprise, so he only rolled the dice twice: to hit and damage :)
If his kids had fun with this "adventure" than he's done EVERYTHING right!
I stand corrected 2 rolls and it may have been the best 30 seconds of both of their lives.
He actually had to download the "orc and Pie" adventure so that he could run it? I mean, it is a room with an Orc, and...um...a pie.
ASEO out
Though the Wil Save column has far less immediate value to my campaign, I'll confess I've also enjoyed it and consider it a good "rounding out" addition to the mag. A page or two of this I like, and as I also have been playing for nearly as long as you-1979-I find Wil's insights on teaching kids gaming rather insightful. Teaching some myself. Wouldnt want them to expand it by any means, but I consider it a solid complement to a great mag. 'Course, I'd never turn down another map either! But lets keep Wil, IMO
Oh joy, now I get to read about Wil running Orc and pie adventures. When will this joke of a column end? Go grovel at the feet of Steve jackson, Wil, and kindly get the hell out of Dungeon.
"1. Identify his audience "
Ummmm, are you saying you represent, as a whole, that audience? I think I have seen more individuals post support of the column, and a vocal few post negatives about the column. So that would indicate that he has identified the audience, as it would seem this thread and increased sales verifies. I think maybe the people who dislike Wil Save are in the minority, not the other way around.
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"1. Identify his audience "
Ummmm, are you saying you represent, as a whole, that audience?
Actually, I'll say that most people who enjoy Wil Save have indicated that they wouldn't mind seeing it in Dragon. Many who like it have even indicated that they would prefer it.
I subscribe to both magazines. I think it would fit in Dragon better than it fits in Dungeon. I personally don't like Downer either. However, that is not a topic of discussion in this thread. There is actually another thread for discussing whether Downer should stay or go. The fact that some people think that there is something else worse in the magazine is not a defense for something else that should be removed.
Wil Save has alienated members of the audience. It has also "increased sales". Except the staff has no idea about how much it has increased sales. They've made a lot of changes at the same time, so it is hard to say which ones are good and which are bad. Overall, the changes are good - that much is clear. I personally feel that Wil Save is a bad change. I think that when we next get a chance to do a magazine wide survey, they'll find that it is bad. They'll find that most of the gamers that never bother to fill out the cards will do specificially to register their complaints against Wil Save.
Aseo is right when he says "Wil Save is Dungeon's Jar-Jar Binks". It is supposed to be cute, or something, but it just makes the intelligent people in the audience angry.
"1. Identify his audience "
Ummmm, are you saying you represent, as a whole, that audience?
I'm the prime example of the DUNGEON audience. I'm not anywhere in Wil's current audience. I'm a long time D&D player who has read and purchased DUNGEON since its first issue. I DM 99.9% of the time and play D&D almost exclusevly. I don't care about other people's personal lives and don't want that insite. I just think that Wil could get a better return and maybe make more bank spinning his tails to Trekies and Steve Jackson Gamers. (Does SJG even have a mag currently?)
I think I have seen more individuals post support of the column, and a vocal few post negatives about the column. So that would indicate that he has identified the audience, as it would seem this thread and increased sales verifies. I think maybe the people who dislike Wil Save are in the minority, not the other way around.
The Audience of DUNGEON:
First, Anyone here not play D&D? So D&D and not Steve Jackson Games, or Star Trek or the lost glory of a faded child actor should be a focus.Second, While the adventures are fun to read, they are primarly a resource used by DMs. So DMing should also be a focus.
And, Hey Wil talked about both in his last Blog advertisement. Now that he's checked off the spend 30 seconds with my stepkid block, will he keep with the D&D/DM theme?
No one at DUNGEON has been able to verify any impact that Wil Save has had on the magazine or sales there of. Ask Erik. that being said, I have seen an increase in posters since Wil Save first appeared, although my cat's barfing has increased as well. Erik explained his resons for adding Wil Save, and I can understand that. Which is why I only comment on the failings of Wil Save, and no longer call for it to be removed. The Portent also blows. It is like Marmaduke bad. Some people would like to have 100% usable content. They aren't going to get it. Oh well we can still complain about the cup not being full ;-)
ASEO out
So that would indicate that he has identified the audience, as it would seem this thread and increased sales verifies.
Are you trying to say that Wil Save is responsible for increased sales? Wow, give me some of whatever it is that you're smoking.
"Are you trying to say that Wil Save is responsible for increased sales?"
Nope, just saying it can't blow so bad as to be practically running readers off, as some have implied.
But in all honesty I think it helps, a magazine cannot exist without garnering new readers. I know the argument goes that it is for DM's so everything should be useful to DM's, blah blah blah. Unfortunately I just don't see a magazine that focuses like that being terribly succesfull, I feel that Wil Save articles apply to the life of a DM and not to the game. Alot of the frustrations and problems scheduling a game because of real world problems I can relate to. His stories involving general game geekiness, I can relate to. A magazine for DM's does not mean it has to be all game material, as a general rule we DM's are a little more dedicated to "geekiness" than just players. So the focus of hisarticles I can understand, whether it is about D&D or another game system. And I think that is the reason it is in the magazine, to give us stories to relate too. I would be less likely to buy a magazine with absolutely nothing in it but modules, maps, and critical threats. I for one enjoy a little variety.
"I'm a long time D&D player who has read and purchased DUNGEON since its first issue. I DM 99.9% of the time and play D&D almost exclusevly."
Same here, except I got on the dungeon train around issue 12.
"I don't care about other people's personal lives and don't want that insite."
And that is your opinion, and does not represent mine, despite me being in the core audience for Dungeon.
"It is like Marmaduke bad."
Poor Marmaduke...I hate that dog.
I don't have a big problem with Wil Save in and of itself -- as someone mentioned, it's one page. Given a choice I'd prefer a Map of Mystery, or new monster/trap, or something more game-related, but it does end the mag on a humanistic note and all.
Yet one of the main things I miss from the "old" Dungeon, the thing that makes it short of perfect now in my view, is that the old Dungeon simply had more adventures. Grab any pre-Poly issue and take a look -- 5 to 6 adventures per issue was probably the average. I stopped buying Dungeon around #88 and returned with #112 (no old-timer could resist Maure Castle!) and when I returned Side Treks were gone. I don't mind the occasional comic or column (especially when they fill the odd space as Mt. Zogon does in #123), but if you add Wil Save and Downer that's 3 pages. They used to run 2-page Side Trek adventures. Who wouldn't trade a comic and a human interest column for another adventure? I certainly would. (I'd give up some of the shorter columns too, for that matter, but that's another topic and I seem to recall Erik or one of the other good folks at Dungeon stating that adventures alone weren't selling the magazine, and they would know). Just my 2 copper pieces!
I would be less likely to buy a magazine with absolutely nothing in it but modules, maps, and critical threats.
And yet you did just that, from issue #12 until Wil Save showed up.
I for one enjoy a little variety.
As if excellent adventurers, fantastic maps, campaign workbook features and full color art aren't enough? Some people will never be happy ;-) How about a recipe page, or a sports column?
I'll admit that I'd rather have a modern DUNGEON over one from a decade or two ago, but that is because of the awesome new format and not Wil Save. Funny, the other advertisements don't bother me at all.
"It is like Marmaduke bad."
Poor Marmaduke...I hate that dog.
At least we agree on something ;-)
ASEO out
"And yet you did just that, from issue #12 until Wil Save showed up."
Yeah, but I have poor impulse control.
Creative Director
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Grab any pre-Poly issue and take a look -- 5 to 6 adventures per issue was probably the average.
While it's true that for a fair amount of time we weren't printing many adventures... we're actually printing as many adventures as we did in the "good old days" now. Remember... back then, Dungeon was a bimonthly magazine. You may have 5–6 adventures per issue, which works out to about 3 per month. These days, Dungeon is monthly, and you get 3 (sometimes 4) adventures in every issue. So really... the argument that Dungeon has stopped printing as many adventures as it used to is dead and buried.
The argument that the magazine costs more, or that you have to pay more to get as many adventures than you did back in 1990 is still here, but that's what happens when inflation gets ahold of things. Magazine prices aren't the only things that were cheeper 15 years ago...
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It is true, that we pay more for the same number of adventures than we did earlier. And here in germany I have to pay even more!
However, I think that the quality of the adventures and the magazine itself, together with the monthly online-enhancement (which is free and takes time to do!) is worth every cent (and Euro-Cent ;)
Even the art (maps and more) made a HUGE jump in quality and I hope it will stay so (at least)...
If I would buy a singel official module I'ld had to pay 14 to 19 Euros and would have much poorer stuff in hands. So for me, everything is fine as it presently is!
But James - don't take this as a free ticket to raise the prizes even more, ok?! ;)))
You're absolutely correct James, given the bi-monthly versus monthly status. I think we can safely say that the "modern" Dungeon on a yearly basis holds its ground or exceeds the old adventure number.
Call me greedy, I guess I was focused on the per-issue number; when whole pages are being used for comics and such its easy to wish for more (adventures)! My point wasn't to argue the number of adventures but to address the Wil Save question; I don't mind the column, but given a choice I'll always prefer that pages be used for adventures over most other content. (Ah, but these are quibbles of course; I consider forums such as this a place for constructive criticism, but I could write pages on the great job I think you folks are doing. I've worked in different editor positions over the years and I know what a thankless job it is!)
The cost factor doesn't bother me much (as mentioned, don't take that as a hint however!), as we're now getting full color pages on beautiful paper (and paper costs have climbed in the last few years). Both in layout, presentation, and editing the magazine looks gorgeous. Like Dryder, I appreciate the online content as well.
I was on the fence earlier, but now I'm just down right disgusted in Wil Save.
If Wil truly enjoys D&D as much as he says he does, and his son is as interested in playing as he says he is, and he really hasn't found the time for over a year to play with him; then that is truly, truly, pathetic parenting. Dungeon should fire him immediately so that he can spend some time with his family. Not that that would help, but at least we wouldn't be contributing.
I find myself hoping that Wil has been faking these articles for the last year. That he's made up his desire to play, that he made up his son's desire to play; just so that he has something to write about.
First, I like Wil Save, and it is one of the first things I read in the magazine every month. Thanks, Erik, for sticking with it.
Second, this is a lot of complaining over ONE page.
Third, some of you guys are acting like real jerks. Calling Wil names and insulting his parenting is simply pathetic. And there is no way that it would ever even get you what you want. You're just having a temper tantrum.
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Second, this is a lot of complaining over ONE page.
I'm getting a little tired of hearing this "defense" of Wil Save. How many pages does it have to be before I'm allowed to complain? 3? 10? 25? 80?
Yes, it is one page.
So is a Map of Mystery. A critical threat can also fit on a single page.
As long as there is a better use for that one page loyal readers have a right to voice their preference. In fact, I consider it a duty to keep explaining why I dislike Wil Save. Most of the points I have brought up remain, I think, valid.
The points can all be distilled to a single one. A significant portion of the audience feels that Wil Wheaton (for whatever reason) alienates them. I believe that Wil doesn't understand his core audience. I don't think he understands the publication in which he is found. The fact that he is being presented as an example of a famous gamer is laughable.
In any case, I'll try to make the point every month with every new article.
I have to admit, I'm almost coming to enjoy making fun of Wil Save. Not nearly as much as I would enjoy a useful article, but as long as Paizo feels it needs to be in the magazine, I'll do my best to derive what enjoyment I can from it.
As long as I'm paying for this magazine, I can talk about the signifigance of a single page for as long as I like...
So to sum up (for what feels like the twelfth time), Wil Save offers nothing, folks. It is a non-gaming article dressed up otherwise and schleped off on a gaming community Paizo thinks will swallow anything.
But we don't and, frankly, it is a mystery to me how this so-called article continues to speak to anything but gaming and keeps its status in the magazine. Someone clear up the mystery, please. Has Wil inked a deal for Mona's soul? Has he got the goods on these people and we're gonna have to endure thias tripe for another year?
My advice for Wil Save is simple: axe this faux gamer while the magazine still has material to be proud of. Don't settle for four out of five stars week after week, Paizo. Drop Wil off at the nearest startbase and get back to the real work of D&D,
while we're young.
I'm getting a little tired of hearing this "defense" of Wil Save.
It's not a defense of Wil, it's merely an observation.
How many pages does it have to be before I'm allowed to complain? 3? 10? 25? 80?
Of course you are allowed to complain over one page, as much as you want to. I'm not saying you don't have the right to do it, I'm just saying I think that some of what's going on in this thread is excessive.
The points can all be distilled to a single one. A significant portion of the audience feels that Wil Wheaton (for whatever reason) alienates them.
Of course, it is also true that a significant portion of us like Wil Save. And since it's only one page, I think you can be a sport about it. After all, I don't like Downer, but I know that a lot of people do. So, let them have it--I still get my three adventures. :-)
I wonder which person on this thread is Will. I know your out there.
As long as I'm paying for this magazine, I can talk about the signifigance of a single page for as long as I like...
Of course you can.
So to sum up (for what feels like the twelfth time), Wil Save offers nothing, folks. It is a non-gaming article dressed up otherwise and schleped off on a gaming community Paizo thinks will swallow anything.
Given that I and others have clearly stated that we like it, the above is simply untrue, and you know it.
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So to sum up (for what feels like the twelfth time), Wil Save offers nothing, folks. It is a non-gaming article dressed up otherwise and schleped off on a gaming community Paizo thinks will swallow anything.
Given that I and others have clearly stated that we like it, the above is simply untrue, and you know it.
I don't want to say that you shouldn't like Wil Save. Lots of people like it. What I'm trying to say, as tactfully as possible, is that the fact that you like it doesn't actually serve to justify its inclusion in the magazine. There are lots of things I like.
I like pictures of naked women.
I like anime.
I like chess.
I like crossword puzzles.
I like physics.
Now, on each of those things, you could decide if you like it or dislike it. If 90% of the readers of Dungeon Magazine like pictures of naked women, that doesn't mean it belongs in the magazine. Even though I like pictures of naked women (see #1) I would probably cancel my subscription if that were included. The fact of the matter is, it isn't that I like it that is important to me. It is important that I have a resource that I can show my non-gaming friends and draw them into the hobby. It's important that it is full of content that enhances my game.
It is important that I get a good value for the money I spend on the magazine.
Just because you like it doesn't mean that the articles Wil Wheaton has presented to us actually relate to gaming. Generally, if they touch on gaming, they do it in such an artificial way to leave true gamers scratching their heads. You see, I'm a married man with varied interests. One of them is D&D. I make time for it in an otherwise busy schedule.
If Wil is going to write an article about gaming, it should certainly be a requirement that he has recent gaming experience on which to draw.
There are a number of people who seem to claim that Wil has a special insight into the minds of gamers. As a true gamer, I think it is obvious that Wil doesn't understand me at all.
And I firmly believe that it isn't enough to like something to justify the inclusion in what is otherwise a great magazine. Dungeon should be a magazine full of resources for DMs. Wil Save does not fulfill that requirement.
I strongly urge the paizo staff to drop the column. I care enough about the magazine that I don't think I'll quit subscribing when my subscription runs out in a year and a half. Though, as I've said before, I'm drawing a line. If another article similar to Wil Save becomes a regular feature (perhaps because readers like it), then I'll leave. And I won't look back. I'll have nearly 100 issues of Dungeon to look back on, and that will fulfill all my gaming needs.
It is just one page. It is one page that I despise, and I think for good reason.
I'm certainly willing to entertain arguments for the continued existence of the column, but I don't think I've seen any good defense for it.
What I'm trying to say, as tactfully as possible, is that the fact that you like it doesn't actually serve to justify its inclusion in the magazine.
That's a fair argument.
I wonder which person on this thread is Will. I know you’re out there.
Ha ha ha... OK ok, you got me...It's me!
I dis my own work so I can feel good when people stand up for me and tout the merits of my literacy supremacy.
OK, that was a lie.
I have to admit, I'm almost coming to enjoy making fun of Wil Save. Not nearly as much as I would enjoy a useful article, but as long as Paizo feels it needs to be in the magazine, I'll do my best to derive what enjoyment I can from it.
Me too. He just makes it so easy. Sometimes I almost feel bad. But then my cat yacks and snaps me back to the real world. I will say that I’m pleased that the last couple of Wil Saves have at least been about D&D. That is a bit tempered by the fact that Wil admits that he doesn’t have time to play D&D, even with his step son, and he doesn’t know enough about the game to be able to run a 10x10 room with an Orc in it without downloading said room and Orc.
Stan …Shaw… (I think… it is hard to read his last name because seeing his art makes my eyes start bleeding) needs to choose a new style of art. His illustrations just make Wil Save even more unlikable.
ASEO out
DeadDmWalking:
Liking a magazine feature is exactly the only reason to justify its inclusion in the magazine. If enough people liked naked women as D&D fare, then it will get included in the magazine.
For example, comics have no place in an adventure/supplement magazine. If you want comics, you look for it in a comic book. Instead of side fillers containing comics, you can have side fillers containing appropriate sized maps, or stat blocks for specific or generic enemies or what-have-you. Comics of any sort don't fit in the mag, if you want to be strict about the criteria that only direct D&D DMing material is to be included.
Same goes for the mail, too. With the advent of message boards, forums, and email, the function of the mail forums in Dungeon have lost much of their spark. While it's true that many people don't have computers, it's also true that many more people post messages in real time than any who care to write meaningful letters. This very thread alone serves to illustrate this very point. Mail, by the same token, does not belong in Dungeon.
Page spreads of cover art, also, do not belong in Dungeon. In fact, many artwork at all do not belong in Dungeon. It's all good to portray a Solar, but it has to be adventure sensitive. Any neutral portrayal of a Solar is to be questioned since we already have portrayals of Solars elsewhere, so it's not exactly what you would call completly original material. By the same argument, such art does not belong in Dungeon, either.
Wil Save touches on the gaming life, and it does so in a light-hearted manner that's insightful and well-crafted. Wil may not understand you personally, but many do enjoy his articles, and it's presumably because he resonates with a significant fraction of the target audience.
Of course, another article similar to Wil Save is already in the magazine. I'm talking about the Editorial section of course. Frequently, the Editor's Letters don't talk about gaming at all, sometimes pertaining to publishing difficulties and personal insights into the publishing business, sometimes, being almost wholly personal.
So are you going to quit your subscription? If you think that giving up 3 excellent adventures every month is worth the value of protesting a few pages content, then that is your right. I think you'd be making a big mistake, but that's just me.
(I have not read all of the numerous previous pages of this thread, so sorry if I am repeating what people may have already said)
It seems very strange to me that something like Will Save attracts so much attention and passion. Will save is one page. If you don't like it, you still have 99% of the magazine to enjoy. Compare that with the adventures. If you happen to not like an adventure in a specific issue, you just wasted 30% of the magazine. Now that's a problem. But I don't see anyone complaining about there being different types of adventures in Dungeon magazine. Everybody accepts that one specific adventure cannot please everyone and that there are going to be times when you don't enjoy one, two or enven all of the adventues in a specific issue. Why not extend that logic to Will Save? Some people will like it, some will not. That is expected and unavoidable. What's the big deal?
Now as to Will Save, I do like it. It is not my favorite part of the magazine, but I usually enjoy reading this short real-life perspective about D&D. I am 30 years old, and some of the topics that Will touches on feel quite close to what I live. I also like that it brings diversity to the magazine which is otherwise very focused.
Everybody accepts that one specific adventure cannot please everyone and that there are going to be times when you don't enjoy one, two or enven all of the adventues in a specific issue. Why not extend that logic to Will Save? Some people will like it, some will not. That is expected and unavoidable. What's the big deal?
Oh, if there is ever an adventure that is as bad as Wil Save you'll hear about it on these boards.
That is one great thing about this board. If you see an error in an adventure, or have a question about something in an adventure, you can post your comment here and you'll get an answer, usually from the author themselves. This has been great since you often learn little extra things about the adventure. I know that while they were cut from the published version, I'll include the Mad Slasher tokens in my running of the "Whispering Cairn".
The more I think about it, the more I realize that Wil Save is like a bad movie crying out to be MST3Ked. The fact that anybody actually takes it seriously makes it even more funny.
"Oh, but Wil is a fellow gamer."
Gamer does not equate to D&D player.
Wil apparently has a very limited knowledge of D&D. Yet he's winging it and flinging it in a D&D (not Gaming, but a D&D) magazine. He's like a guy in a bar trying to pick up a chick by poorly pretending to be something he is not. Whether he succeeds or not is purely up to how much the girl has had to drink.
Being a person that attends gaming conventions and plays Steve Jackson Games should not qualify a person to write in DUNGEON.
As for it only being one page...every cancer starts small. It starts as a cell, then goes on to spread. It rots and corrupts, spreading its bloated festering sickness from within, ruining and destroying until it kills.
As for the comics...that is a different thread.
ASEO out
The fact that the article sucks ***** should be enough to remove it from the magazine. But barring such wisdom from my fellow gamers I will say this, if it is indeed 'tolerable,' as a few of you have pointed out, then consider the fact that it has no place in Dungeon. It is NOT a gaming article. Never has been, never will be, no matter how much Wil dresses it up as such. Put it somehwere else, for the good of us all. Place it alongside a column in Dragon, or perhaps the latest issue of'Everything you've ever wanted to know about Star Trek (but were afraid to ask).'
Anywhere but Dungeon.
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If I were saying that we should drop it from the magazine and reduce the page count by one, that would be pretty silly.
I mean, it doesn't belong in the magazine, and it makes me angry, but an extra page of useless stuff (if it is free) is slightly better than nothing, in the off-chance that someone does like it.
But we've lost things from the magazine, and they were better than Wil Save. You know what? If we took that one page, and we saved the cost over the course of two years, we'd have 24 pages to add in a special supplement. Think of all the fun that could be. Of course, the actual cost doesn't work out in quite such a linear fashion - but the argument does hold.
Now, there are obviously a number of people who like Wil Save. I generally believe those of you don't know what's best for you, but I'm arrogant that way. I expect you're also the kind of people who cut off your hands in the lawnmower. I truly believe that eventually you'll read the magazine, think about it, and then realize that the column isn't about people who play games, isn't about gaming, isn't about D&D, and is less interesting than Wil's Blog which you can receive for free.
But, even if that doesn't happen, I'm still willing to bet that there is SOMETHING 95% of you would like in the magazine more than Wil Save. And often it could fit in a single page.
How about a write-up of all the major Greyhawk players? How about a critical threat? How about reproducing the cover art with no text?
Are those of you who are fans of Wil Save really saying that you like it more than anything else? Would you prefer that the column be expanded to six pages? Think of how much more in-depth he could go into 'the real life of a gamer' as some of you seem to think he does....
Would that be better?
I am kind of left breathless and disheartened for the game by this entire posting. The maturity level and the reason in the arguments bring the game down a notch.
Will's column was a breath of fresh air to the magazine. IT was great prose and really focused on the life of a gamer/dm. I could careless if it had 3.5 material contained in it. HEck that's what the other 130 pages are for.
His naysayers say they were upset because it had nothing to do with d and d. Do you guys ever unbury yourselfs from your DMG and Nowick comics and pick up a real magazine. From Rolling Stones to Time to People to Electronic GAming Monthly every magazine i subscribe to has an article like Wil SAve. It's an article focused about the people whom play the game. It was the added value to Dungeon that made Dungeon magazine worth subscribing for me. When I received my free issue at Gencon last year, I was not overly impressed until I opened up to the back of the book. It was a cool article that ... I thought... showed the mature side of gamers. I hadn't read anything like it and it was a driving force for me to subscribe. NOw I hear that the column has been run out by a bunch of people not sophisticated enough to understand the importance of his article in the magazine. I feel like I was subscribing to d20 for teens instead of the mature magazine I assumed.
If this is the majority then put me into the minority. The article just appealed to a more sophisticated crowd.
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If you don't mind, Don DM, I'm going to reply to a number of your points.
I am kind of left breathless and disheartened for the game by this entire posting. The maturity level and the reason in the arguments bring the game down a notch.
I'm sorry you feel that way. Although I think there were a few posters that 'crossed the line', there is nothing wrong with presenting an opinion, and there is certainly nothing wrong with trying to develop arguments that support your position, or attack the position of the opposing opinion. This is how real discussions occur. I know there are a lot of people who liked Wil Save, but in the dozen pages of comments, at least a few people who originally liked it came to dislike it. Several times people said "you make a good point". I'm not sure which arguments you are specificially referring to, but if you did, I'd be happy to address them more specificially. I'd be particularly upset to learn that some of my arguments were included in your assessment.
Will's column was a breath of fresh air to the magazine. IT was great prose and really focused on the life of a gamer/dm. I could careless if it had 3.5 material contained in it. HEck that's what the other 130 pages are for.
It seems that there is at least a chance that Wil is more a former gamer than a gamer. I understand that real life can interfere with a game, and the real people in life come first. Still, is it wrong to hope that in a magazine for D&D I don't have to hear about how impossible it is to balance regular gaming with other real life committments? There are a number of adult gamers, and information on how they managed to do both would speak more to me (and I think other gamers) than Wil's remarks on the gaming hobby.
His naysayers say they were upset because it had nothing to do with d and d. Do you guys ever unbury yourselfs from your DMG and Nowick comics and pick up a real magazine. From Rolling Stones to Time to People to Electronic GAming Monthly every magazine i subscribe to has an article like Wil SAve. It's an article focused about the people whom play the game.
I do a number of things other than play D&D. I work 40 hours each week. I was married one month ago yesterday. I have friends who don't play games. In a short while I'll be raising a family (hopefully). I don't think the argument that Wil Save is an article about people who play the game is true. In any case, I purchase Dungeon as as a tool for my game, rather than as a general interest magazine. Besides Wil Save there were other features I disliked, and some I did. The letter from the Editor (even the ones 'guestwritten' by those other than Erik Mona) did what Wil failed to do. They got me excited about gaming. I think that is why I subscribe to Dungeon, it helps keep me excited about gaming. I've been on hiatus from DMing for the last 6 months (with 2 one-shot exceptions), and Dungeon keeps enticing me to start a game again, even though I had been burned out on DMing a short while ago.
It was the added value to Dungeon that made Dungeon magazine worth subscribing for me. When I received my free issue at Gencon last year, I was not overly impressed until I opened up to the back of the book. It was a cool article that ... I thought... showed the mature side of gamers. I hadn't read anything like it and it was a driving force for me to subscribe.
I'm really not sure how to respond to this. You say the column features "those who play the game" and show the "mature side of gamers". I only saw one gamer featured in the column, and that was Wil. In any case, opinions can differ. You like it, and I don't. That doesn't make either of our opinions wrong. It also doesn't mean we should discuss the source of our disagreement.
NOw I hear that the column has been run out by a bunch of people not sophisticated enough to understand the importance of his article in the magazine.
This appears to be a false statement. Wil was asked to try to focus his writing on Dungeons & Dragons, rather than a general gaming lifestyle. Wil did not say he was tired of personal attacks and would therefore stop writing (which would not have been terribly mature, though I could understand that). He realized that writing for Dungeon would be something of a chore because he no longer played D&D. Despite what appear to be sincere wishes to the contrary, real life got in the way. Wil chose not to continue writing for Dungeon because he has too many creative committments, and this one was not as much fun to write because he didn't have much recent D&D experience.
I feel like I was subscribing to d20 for teens instead of the mature magazine I assumed.
While I'm personally 26, the readership of the magazine varies greatly, including teenagers. In any case, chronological age is not usually a measure of maturity. I don't know if you personally think that I'm immature. I don't think that, but you have a very limited perspective. You're not saying that the subscribers should accept every decision the editors make without voicing complaint or dissatisfaction, are you? Again, there may be times when the conversation came close to crossing a line, or a few individuals made snide comments without support or consideration - but by and large these are the exception in the entire 11 pages of topic.
If this is the majority then put me into the minority. The article just appealed to a more sophisticated crowd.
Some people say that. Anyways, it doesn't matter anymore if you like it or I dislike it. The column will be gone unless Wil changes his mind. I don't think that is very likely, because he is focusing a little more on his family, and that seems to be the one thing he loves above all else. I for one wouldn't want to stand in the way of that.
I'm sorry you feel that way. Although I think there were a few posters that 'crossed the line', there is nothing wrong with presenting an opinion, and there is certainly nothing wrong with trying to develop arguments that support your position, or attack the position of the opposing opinion. This is how real discussions occur. I know there are a lot of people who liked Wil Save, but in the dozen pages of comments, at least a few people who originally liked it came to dislike it. Several times people said "you make a good point". I'm not sure which arguments you are specificially referring to, but if you did, I'd be happy to address them more specificially. I'd be particularly upset to learn that some of my arguments were included in your assessment.
Will's column was a breath of fresh air to the magazine. IT was great prose and really focused on the life of a gamer/dm. I could careless if it had 3.5 material contained in it. HEck that's what the other 130 pages are for.It seems that there is at least a chance that Wil is more a former gamer than a gamer. I understand that real life can interfere with a game, and the real people in life come first. Still, is it wrong to hope that in a magazine for D&D I don't have to hear about how impossible it is to balance regular gaming with other real life committments? There are a number of adult gamers, and information on how they managed to do both would speak more to me (and I think other gamers) than Wil's remarks on the gaming hobby.
His naysayers say they were upset because it had nothing to do with d and d. Do you guys ever unbury yourselfs from your DMG and Nowick comics and pick up a real magazine. From Rolling Stones to Time to...1st comment- Honestly, I am not going to quote ignornant statements such as "will must die" for you to come back and rebut. I'm sure you can read through and pick and choose which comments are child like and ignorant (will must die). Sure there were some good arguments and I am not limiting freedom of opinion. I just think that the opinions were weak.
2. When you're a gamer you're a gamer for life. I find your former gamer statement funny...a former gamer?. Where and when did he kick the habit because I know a few dozen people whom need this. I know of people whom take a braek for up to 10 or 20 years and still come back sharp as ever. I know people whom only play a game every now and then (meaning every year or two). I guess their not cool enough to be in the club? Will was a busy gamer but his artices were always gamer focused. The life of a busy gamer. I think a lot of people didn't "get" that in his article.. at least on here. I don't know if Enworld has more sophisticated and mature gamers but theres a thread on there with about 75 posts all in support of Will (and it was started yesterday) It's a common fact (look at newsradio shows and pick up popular magazines) that people like reading about celebs (whom I consider he is) going through things that are similar to them. It's a very popular magazine component.
3. Again it was about a guy who gamed and his life. One person. In retrospect it represents us all.
4. Read Will's blog again. It is obvious the editor came to him with complaints such as the one raised here and said i want ou to focus only on d and d to which he responded i like writing about what i'm writng about and it seems relevent. So the editor gave him an out and .. stressed he took it. I"m in the writing business and I've seen this happen a lot. This was not an elected decision by Will. this was a pained decision and more than likely was taking place over a couple months.
5. Actualy with rare occasion, age is a good factor when determining maturity (only a teenager would tell you other wise ;)) I'm not saying anything about the subscribers. What I'm saying is the maturity level of the subscribers was not at that which I am as a gamer. It is not a malicious attack against the naysayers but just an observation that we are on different levels of maturity when it comes to games and our lives.
6. You're right and wrong. THis is a backdoor decision and you can tell from reading Will's blog. He didn't want to quit but NO writer wants to be told what to write about especially when he considers what he is writing about relevent to the topic.
Looks like we've won, folks. Now let's roll the credits and get on with the business of producing decent D&D articles for a D&D magazine.
completely off-topic post...
I was married one month ago yesterday.
Congrats to both you and your wife. I wish you both many happy years together.
/completely off-topic post
Looks like we've won, folks. Now let's roll the credits and get on with the business of producing decent D&D articles for a D&D magazine.
Won what? looks like they'll just replace it with an ad or something.
"Won what? looks like they'll just replace it with an ad or something."
An ad would still be superior to Wil Save. So would simply one less page in the magazine.
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An ad would still be superior to Wil Save. So would simply one less page in the magazine.
Yamo - I don't want to tell anyone off - I don't think it is appropriate. Still, if they simply removed the page without putting anything in its place a travesty would have been committed. I didn't like Wil Save, but I could choose to ignore it at any time. I shouldn't let my personal feelings get in the way of other people's enjoyment.
But, at the same time, if something better could replace Wil Save, I can put my efforts toward improving the magazine with a good conscience. If you think we've "won", than you could at least try to be a good sport about it.
Well, I really liked Wil Save, but I guess I can see that some people wanted it to focus more on D&D, and that's fair.
I hope that the editors will replace the feature with something similar (another personal/fluff/gamer-life column, not more crunch). I think it really adds something. If the column is focussed more on D&D than Wil Save was, all the better.
I have faith in you, Mr. Mona. Bring us something good here.