travis heb's page

Thank you all very much for the feedback.
The only source I have to go by for Pathfinder is from http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner
According to that, the max attacks was 8 at lvl 20 (if this is incorrect, I would definitely change it to add the +2str evo. and +2Nat.Arm. evo).
A strict reading of the 'Aspect' ability was 'up to x points' from the evolution pool so, I chose 0 (why weaken my meatshield that I can turn into?)
The 6 pts were to take the 'huge' evolution, not up fast healing from 1 to 2 (it's only to simplify out of combat healing to the point of negligence).

Summoner-20 20pt-buy
*The summoner suffers from the least amount of MAD I've ever seen*

This is just a comparison of the basics of gear and feats (with several simple rage powers) for a Barbarian and a Barbarian/Frenzied Berzerker (which will be nearly identical) as far as [direct] increases to damage are concerned.
This comparison shows snap-shots of levels 10, 15 and 20 using the 'Character Wealth by Level' chart to purchase gear.

*Saves/AC not included
*Only use basic melee prowess enhancing gear w/ no single item worth more than 25% total wealth.
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20pt Buy (High Fantasy)

Barbarian Frenzied Berzerker
Lvl 10 Lvl7/3 (Barb/FB)
Lvl 15 Lvl7/8 (Barb/FB)
Lvl 20 Lvl7/10/3 (Barb/FB/Barb)

***Level 5 Human Barbarian (common start)

*Basic Gear Total 10,500gp Spent 4,875gp Leftover 5,625gp
Weapon- +1 Falchion 2,375 gp
Belt- Of Physical Might +1 (Str/Con) 2,500 gp

*Feats
Human- Power Attack
Lvl1- Cleave
Lvl3- Weapon Focus (Falchion)
Lvl5- Dazzling Display
*Rages
Lvl2- Intimidating Glare
Lvl4- Powerful Blow (+1dmg/4lvls)
*Powerful Blow and Surprise Accuracy not included in comparisons because they're only once per rage.

Attributes
_Total_Base__Racial_Level_Gear
Str-22 18 +2 +1 +1
Dex-11 11
Con-16 15 +1
Int-9 9
Wis-10 10
Cha-7 7

Attack(s) while Raging with Power Attack
+13 2d4+19 18-20/x2
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***Level 10 comparison

*Basic Gear Total- 62,000gp Spent- 18,370gp Leftover- 43,625gp
Weapon- +2 Falchion 8,375gp
Belt- Of Physical Might +2 (Str/Con) 10,000gp

*Feats
Lvl7- Shatter Defenses
Lvl-9 Improved Critical (Falchion)

*Barbarian (no class abilities add directly (atk/dmg) to melee at these levels)
Added Rage Powers (few base rage powers add directly (atk/dmg) to melee at these levels)
Lvl6- Surprise Accuracy (+1Atk/4lvls)
Lvl 8- Terrifying Howl (indirect-'debuff')
Lvl 10- Unexpected Strike- indirect, AoO

*Frenzied Berzerker
Lvl1- Frenzy 6+con. mod. rounds (+6 Str, -4AC, one extra attack at highest BAB, suffer 2 non-lethal dmg/rnd of frenzy. You are fatigued afterwards for 2x rounds spent in Frenzy).
Lvl2- Supreme Cleave (a single 5ft. step when cleaving)
Lvl3- Intimidating Prowess

Attributes
_Total_Base__Racial_Level_Gear
Str-24 18 +2 +2 +2
Dex-11 11
Con-17 15 +2
Int-9 9
Wis-10 10
Cha-7 7

Attack(s) while Raging w/ Power Attack
Barbarian- +19/14 2d4+27 15-20/x2
Attack(s) while Raging and Frenzied w/ Power Attack
F.B.- +22/17 2d4+32 15-20/x2
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***Level 15 comparison

*Basic Gear Total-240,000gp Spent-101,375gp Leftover- 128,625gp
Weapon- +5 Falchion 50,375gp
Belt- Of Physical Might +4 (Str/Con) 40,000gp
Boots- Of Speed 12,000gp

*Feats
Lvl 11- Critical Focus
Lvl 13- Bleeding Critical (+2d6 stacking bleed damage)
Lvl 15- (free)

*Barbarian
Lvl 11- Greater Rage (+6str/con)
Rage Powers
Lvl 12- Mighty Swing (auto crit. confirmation once per rage)
Lvl 14- Quick Reflexes (extra AoO while raging)

*Frenzied Berzerker
Lvl 4- Deathless Frenzy
Lvl 5- Add 2xStr. bonus to 2hnders (instead of 1.5xStr. bonus round down)
Lvl 7- Intimidate 1 enemy/round as a free action while in Frenzy
Lvl 8- Greater Frenzy (+10Str)

Attributes
_Total_Base__Racial_Level_Gear
Str-27 18 +2 +3 +4
Dex-11 11
Con-19 15 +4
Int-9 9
Wis-10 10
Cha-7 7

Attack(s) while Raging w/ Power Attack and Hasted
Barbarian- +29/29/24/19 2d4+37 15-20/x2 (+2d6 bleeding crit)
Attack(s) while Raging and Frenzied w/ Power Attack and Hasted
F.B.- +33/33/28/23 2d4+50 15-20/x2 (+2d6 bleeding crit)
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***Level 20 Comparison

*Basic Gear Total-880,000gp Spent-301,375gp Leftover- 578,625gp
Weapon- +5 Falchion of +5d6 elemental damage 200,375gp
Belt- Of Physical Might +6 (Str/Con) 90,000gp
Boots- Of Speed 12,000gp

*Feats
Lvl 15- (free)
Lvl 17- (free)
Lvl 19- (free)

*Barbarian
Lvl 17- Tireless Rage
Lvl 20- Mighty Rage (+8Str/Con)
Rage Powers
Lvl 16- (free)
Lvl 18- (free)
Lvl 20- (free)

*Frenzied Berzerker
Lvl 9- Gruesome Revelry (Fearsome Display) 3/day- After making a killing blow, you can cause fear in enemies that can see you and the fallen enemy. DC=10+1/2 Class Lvl + Str. mod (Barbarian Lvls stack for purposes of this DC)
Lvl 10- Tireless Frenzy, Greater Power Attack
->Barbarian Lvl 8- Rage Power - Terrifying Howl (indirect-'debuff')
->Barbarian Lvl 10- Rage Power - Unexpected Strike- indirect, AoO

Attributes
_Total_Base__Racial_Level_Gear
Str-31 18 +2 +5 +6
Dex-11 11
Con-21 15 +6
Int-9 9
Wis-10 10
Cha-7 7

Attack(s) while Raging and Hasted w/ Power Attack
Barbarian- +37/37/32/27/22 2d4+44 15-20/x2 +5d6elem. (+2d6 bleeding crit)
Attack(s) while Raging, Frenzied and Hasted w/ Greater Power Attack
F.B.- +40/40/35/30/25 2d4+71 15-20/x2 +5d6elem. (+2d6 bleeding crit)

*Wonders if this class would be anywhere near as broken as it was in 3.5 with how Power Attack works in PF*

Seriously though... a Charging, Leaping Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker was absolutely -sick- in 3.5.

As for Frenzy, I never liked it because it's a mechanic that gives a chance that a PC will attack (and probably kill) another PC. Can we just change that aspect of it and treat it more like normal Rage?

I really don't see why not. It's already penalized with subdual damage/round, as well as [initially] fatigue when it ends, I tend to agree with you that it [having to make a will-save to end, which means losing the save eventually] is an ugly left-over. I had tried for as close to a direct conversion as possible just to get one of my favorite 3.5e prestige classes for use with Pathfinder (which I just discovered recently).

The following is my breakdown of a Frenzied Berzerker.

*Please discuss the following*

Frenzied Berzerker (and Power Attack iterations)

Requirements- +7BAB, Power Attack, Cleave (Destructive and Intimidating Rage)

BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1 1 2 0 0 Frenzy 1/day, Diehard
2 2 3 0 0 Supreme Cleave (a single 5ft. step when cleaving)
3 3 3 1 1 Frenzy 2/day
4 4 4 1 1 Deathless Frenzy
5 5 4 1 1 Frenzy 3/day, Imp. Pwr. Atk
6 6 5 2 2 Inspire Frenzy 1/day
7 7 5 2 2 Frenzy 4/day
8 8 6 2 2 Greater Frenzy, Inspire Frenzy 2/day
9 9 6 3 3 Frenzy 5/day
10 10 7 3 3 Inspire Frenzy 3/day, Tireless Frenzy, Supreme Pwr. Atk.
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Frenzy- +6 Str, -4AC, Extra Attack at highest BAB, -2non-lethal dmg/rnd of frenzy. Fatigued afterwards.
Deathless Frenzy- go below -0 hp w/o penalty. When Frenzy ends, die as normal (if at or below Con. score). Doesn't prevent death from massive dmg/spell effects.
Imp. Pwr. Atk.- 1-1(2) -> 1-2(3)
Greater Frenzy- +10 Str
Tireless Frenzy- no fatigue after Frenzy.
Supreme Pwr. Atk- 1-2(3) -> 1-3(4)
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*Conversion to Pathfinder*

*Add the following to keep in-line w/ the idea of "something each level"
Lvl3-Add Str. mod. to Indimidate/bluff skill checks
Lvl5-Add [Backswing?] 2xStr to 2hnders (instead of 'Improved Power Attack')
Lvl7-Intimidate 1 enemy/rnd as a free action when in Frenzy.
Lvl9-Gruesome Revelry (Fearsome Display) 3/day- After making a killing blow you can cause fear in enemies that can see you and the fallen enemy. DC= 10+1/2 Class Lvl + Str. mod. (Barbarian lvl's count towards this to help keep DC reasonable with other/similar abilities)
Lvl10-Replace 'Supreme Power Attack' with Greater Power attack as implemented in the 2-handed Fighter variant in APG.

*Frenzy- duration converted to Rnds/Day= Con. mod. +6 for 1st lvl. and +3rnds/lvl after (I increased rnds/day to keep uses in-line w/ increased frenzy progression compared to rage progression-For FB Lvls above 10, additional rnds/day goes to 2/Lvl like a barbarian). Fatigue lasts #rnds spent in frenzy/x2 (same as rage penalty), couples penalty from other sources (ie- if already fatigued->exhausted).

*A possible breakdown of the Power Attack [progression] chain*
*Greater Pwr. Atk- 1-2|1 Main|Off-Hnd. wpn. & 1-3 Two-Hnd. wpn. goes to 1-3|2 Main|Off-Hnd wpn. & 1-5 Two-Hnd wpn. ---This keeps the additional damage in-line with the original idea behind it. For the Main Hand, dmg increases from +12 to +18, an increase of 6 damage at lvl 20, or +1 every 4 lvls. For the off-hand, it goes from 1-1 to 1-2, an increase from +6 to +12 damage or +1 every 4 lvls. For a 2-Hnd. wpn it goes from 1-3 to 1-5, an increase of +18 to +30 damage, or +2 every 4 lvl's. I used these numbers to keep the design of only using whole numbers instead of 1/2 increments.

Type Ratio Total dmg. increase
(Average(Hi/Low) "Damage dice" equivalent)
Basic Power Attack
Main 1->2 +12
hand (3d6+1)
Off 1->1 +6
hand (2d6-1)
Two- 1->3 +18
hand (5d6)
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With Supreme Power Attack as implied(not exact) in 3.5 converted to PF.(Keeps the damage ratios equal between Main-hnd|Off-hnd vs. Two-hnd but not, the difference gained for Main-hnd vs. Main-hnd|Off-hnd)
(additional difference)
Main 1->3 +18 (+6)
hand (5d6)
Off 1->2 +12 (+6)
hand (3d6+1)
Two- 1->5 +30 (+12)
hand (8d6+2)
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Alternate version keeping Main hand as the base increase. (Not proposed due to non-whole numbers for Off-hnd/Two-hnd)
Main 1->3 +18 (+6)
hand (5d6)
Off 1->1.5 +9 (+3)
hand (2d6+2)
Two- 1->4.5 +27 (+9)
hand (8d6-1)
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Version as implemented in APG for 2-Handed Fighter variant. (A strict doubling is not proposed due to damage balance concerns but, it keeps damage difference the same across the board, with whole numbers and, if damage could otherwise be balanced, this would be the best/clearest type of power attack progression)
Main 1->4 +24 (+12)
hand (7d6-1)
Off 1->2 +12 (+6)
hand (3d6+1)
Two- 1->6 +36 (+18)
hand (10d6+1)
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Summary Comparison
Frenzied Berzerker gains
*****
Frenzy->Greater|Tireless|Deathless Frenzy (+10str, -2AC, -2subdual dmg/rnd of Frenzy, Additional extra attack at Highest BAB)
Imp. Pwr. Atk. (however they implemented it for the 2hnd fighter variant)
Supreme Pwr. Atk. (choose whichever option above best fits)
Lvl3-Add Str. mod. to Indimidate/bluff skill checks
Lvl5-Add [Backswing?] 2xStr to 2hnders (normal=1.5xstr bonus to damage round down)
Lvl7-Intimidate (per skill) 1 enemy/rnd as a free action while in Frenzy.
Lvl9-Gruesome Revelry (Fearsome Display) 3/day- After making a killing blow you can cause fear in enemies that can see you and the fallen enemy. DC= 10+1/2 Class Lvl + Str. mod. (Barbarian lvl's count towards this)
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Loses
DR 3/- thru 5/- (additional +3/- DR)
7 Rage Powers
Trap sense +3-+5
10 lvls of Uncanny Dodge
Indomitable Will.
Greater->Mighty Tireless Rage and 20rnds of rage.