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I'll emphasize that I am talking about about Paizo adventures here. I'd say that taking down encounters with pretty impressive ELs is standard fair in a Paizo adventure.

Fair enough. I haven't played Paizo adventures (yet), as I've said in another thread I've only recently heard about Paizo. I was actually looking for Pathfinder as I was very interested in it based on what I heard on the WotC boards.

You can do it in both but the difference in XP is night and day. If I throw five level 4 PCs versus a single CR 8 encounter in 3.5 each PC just earned them selves 960 XP.

If I throw five level 4 PCs versus a Level 8 Solo I kill half the players - but assuming I fudge like a mad then they just earned themselves 350 XP. Your getting almost 3 times as much XP for this encounter in 3.5 as you are in 4E.

I'm saying that this kind of an encounter is just not that uncommon in a Pazio adventure. In 4E I'm much less likely to even try it - a Solo a lot of levels above the PCs is way more dangerous in 4E, they are just not really vulnerable to pile ons, in fact their made to be able to operate in that sort of environment. However even if I did try it my players would not earn anything close to the same XP. Essentially those making the conversions of Paizo adventures are quickly having to come to grips with the fact that you just don't earn as much XP in 4E as you do in 3.5.

Perhaps, but I don't know if that's a bad thing. I think XP is a lot more balanced out now and makes a lot more sense. Keep in mind also that 350 XP means more in 4e than it did in 3e.

Also remember that the mechanic for monster power is entirely different now. Though I don't think a level 8 solo would be suitable for level 4 characters, I don't think it would necessarily TPK them. The DMG suggests that a level 7 solo would be an appropriate "difficult" encounter for a group of 5 level 4 characters.

In general though, I do think leveling is much faster in 4e. In my own example, the characters were really close to leveling up after a single adventure that had no extended rest! Only two more encounters of their level or one encounter their level +4 would do it. Sounds tough to do in a single encounter but it's only a party of 2 characters, which means a couple elites their level would do it. xD

On the other hand I'm finding that WotCs statements of 10 encounters to level might be slightly conservative

Actually it's a liberal number. PCs in 4e can take on encounters higher than their level relatively easily. Add in Minor and Major Quest XP, and PCs advance pretty fast. After 6 encounters my first run of 4e, the characters got to 800 XP-- all without taking an extended rest. (You need 1000 XP to hit second level). Leveling is VERY fast in 4e.

The real reason we see this is that 3.5 characters are capable of beating encounters that are much higher then their level

This has not been my experience with 3.5 at all. Then again I haven't played with groups consisting primarily of clerics, wizards, and druids, which I hear are uber-pwnage groups in 3.5 (a bad thing, imho).

would suggest and if you take down a CR 8 creature with a 3rd or 4th level party you earn buckets of XP. In 4E you don't gain bonus Xp for beating higher level monsters - its a static system so the higher level monster is worth more but its not a variable number.

But the XP worth is actually appropriate to the challenge. 2nd level monsters are harder than 1st level monsters, but not doubly so. This actually makes it far easier to build encounters.

This is most extreme in the case of an encounter where the PCs all fight a single very powerful enemy. A real staple of Paizo adventures. in 3.5 if you gang up on a single foe the single foe is a huge...

And? You can do this in 4E as well. Solo monsters or a monster of much higher level than the PCs. (Or, even, a Solo monster of higher level than the PCs.)

I am also a Female Gamer (though I didn't know until now that I qualified for capital letters -- yippee!) and a Female Game Designer and I like the occasional scantily clad woman as well. What I don't like is a pervasive, unchanging image of the scantily clad fantasy-woman as the only available model in RPGs. Variety, after all, is the spice of life.

-Amber S., who likes sexy medusas

I'm a male (gamer) that considers himself a feminist as well, and I agree with this 100%.

C'mon publishers, mix it up a little!

This makes for a good GM checklist. Thanks a ton, veector, I've only recently started DMing again and really needed the little refresher course! :)

DoppleGangster wrote:

If anyone can get on WotC 4E site (sorry, i got perma-banned), would you please do me a favor?

Tell everybody DoppleGangster said... "Kiss my a**"

Thanks!

I went there today after quite a long time to see if it was still the cesspool of anger, hatred, and circular argument that it was two months ago.

Things haven't changed much. Strangely, many of the members there have developed a hatred for Paizo. I was attacked for having something written in my sig about them.

It was fun...next time I will just give myself a firm groinshot and pick up a copy of the weekly world news when I want that kind of fun.

I think your real problem is in lumping all of us 4e posters together, generalizing us and stereotyping us.

I've seen more people on the WotC boards that support Paizo than those that do not-- and that includes people from BOTH camps: the "4vengers" and the "h4ters." Yeah, the 4e supporters are DISAPPOINTED that Paizo isn't supporting 4e, but that's a far, FAR cry from hatred toward Paizo. If anything it shows a modicum of respect or even love.

Sounds to me like you ran across TD. No one likes TD on either side, dude. xD

Personally I don't get involved in the "edition wars" and I think I'm actually in the majority. It just doesn't seem like the majority, because guess what, the majority of the people avoiding the wars are, you guess it, AVOIDING THE WARS. So you won't see us posting in threads the devolve into flaming one side or the other. And I'm talking both sides of the fence, here: there are 4e supporters and 3e supporters that get along just fine without all the hatred. We just avoid the people who DO go that low, that's all.

In fact, let me tell you something. I never HEARD of Paizo until recently, and it was because of the people on the 4e boards that I thought I'd check the site out and see what Pathfinder was all about. Why? Because I heard great things. From both 4e supporters and 3e supporters. Seems Paizo is almost universally lauded as an excellent company over there and if you say anything against them you get jumped on by both the 4vengers and the h4ters. o.O