ryanroyce's page

My point is that Warforged are made, not born, so there is no such thing as a "racial standard" or "general tendency" for them. At all. Elves, dwarves and shifters all have genetics (or whatever passes for genetics in a world like D&D) that create these tendencies, but warforged are man-made and are thus built to spec. By this, I mean that House Cannith doesn't create a Fighter Model and then retrofit it to the Rogue Model anymore than Ford tries to turn F-150s into Mustangs. They are simply built differently from the ground up.

No, they used creation forges activated from Schema, the nearest things to mass production that a fantasy world has ever seen. If they were individually crafted for purpose, I could agree but as they were turned out on a production line, I can't. It may be a very advanced production line allowing for some changes but it's still a production line.

Schema designed and developed by House Cannith over the course of the Last War, that is. As shown by the existence of the Warforged Titan, warforged have been produced differently. The flavor text and novels of Eberron have often mentioned various 'models' of warforged built for specific tasks, too. I am not disputing that the vast majority of warforged were +2CON/-2CHA Fighters (tough and obedient), but when the time came to produce a Ranger, Sorcerer or Cleric, Cannith could have, and would have, forged them differently from variant schema designs as opposed to retrofitting a pure combat model.

Of course that's just my point of view, but I feel that as they had a net -2 to their stats before Pathfinder, and a reduced Wisdom and Charisma were part of that, some elements of that should remain. In my idea of an upgrade I decided that they should have a net +0, and that the most logical stats they should be strong in as living constructs should be strength and constitution, not just constitution, so I kept the penalties to wisdom and charisma. However, this is just my interpretation.

I accept that for what it is, and agree in principle (my version is also a net +0), I just disagree with the implementation. My version of the warforged, with a variable +2/-2, retains the net -2 in comparison to most other races (notably humans and their kin) that they had in the ECS, but it also captures what I see as their inherent capacity for customization. Pathfinder's new concept of a variable stat bonus simply fits my vision of the Warforged better than the original fixed stat array.

Also, it doesn't help that I strongly dislike the use of -2 CHA as a short-hand for social ineptitude in any race, not just warforged. As the basis for spontaneous arcane casting, channel energy, paladin abilities, Use Magic Device and so on, CHA is useful for far more than just social skills.

You might not like it, but that's the way everyone plays it. I'm not wild about it either, but that's the way the game is. Charisma is a in part rating for the extent to which we impose our personality on others, and in part a rating of our social aptitude.

*blink* Forgive me if this sounds mean, but we're discussing a way to house rule the Eberron races into the Pathfinder system and you think it actually matters how "everyone plays it"? I am not concerned about this, to say the least. If I were, I'd never house rule anything.

ryanroyce wrote:

Even if the default, mass-produced warforged was a Fighter, it was still well within the means of House Cannith to produce non-standard warforged with different stat arrays (even a +2 CHA model designed to command other WF soldiers). Giving them a +2/-2 array both recognizes this capacity for customization while also giving them the net -2 they had in the original version.

I am not disputing this. But that does not make the standard for the race a variable. After all, Kieth Baker himself gave them the +2 Con/-2 Wis/-2 Cha original attribute modifiers, so he clearly didn't feel that the level of customisation available merited having variable modifiers attributable to any score as humans did.

You can have clumsy elves, smart shifters, charismatic dwarves and so on, yet no-one has suggested making their ability score modifiers variable because the modifiers represent the standard deviation of the race from the human 'norm'. In the same way, you can have wise, charismatic, weak and frail warforged - but that does not make these the standard, they are exceptions. The ability modifiers represent the racial standard and general tendency, and if you want a non-standard member of the race you have to deal with that. For example, you can get tough, unsociable elves, but that doesn't mean you get to move their -2 from con to cha just to suit that mechanical build; you allocate your scores and make the racial adjustments like anyone else, even though not all elves are born identical clones just as not all warforged were created as identical models.

My point is that Warforged are made, not born, so there is no such thing as a "racial standard" or "general tendency" for them. At all. Elves, dwarves and shifters all have genetics (or whatever passes for genetics in a world like D&D) that create these tendencies, but warforged are man-made and are thus built to spec. By this, I mean that House Cannith doesn't create a Fighter Model and then retrofit it to the Rogue Model anymore than Ford tries to turn F-150s into Mustangs. They are simply built differently from the ground up.

For what it's worth, I (am planning to) run a Pathfinder game using the Eberron setting, and have run a few Eberron 3.5 games in the past, so my POV is couched firmly in the Eberron setting itself.

Also, it doesn't help that I strongly dislike the use of -2 CHA as a short-hand for social ineptitude in any race, not just warforged. As the basis for spontaneous arcane casting, channel energy, paladin abilities, Use Magic Device and so on, CHA is useful for far more than just social skills. Thus, I choose to represent the social ineptitude of the warforged with a separate penalty to Diplomacy and Sense Motive instead. They're perfectly capable of channeling energy or casting sorcerer spells, but when it comes to interpersonal social dynamics, they're in unfamiliar territory. This ineptitude goes both ways, of course, so warforged get a bonus to Bluff since normal humanoids find their largely immobile faces almost impossible to 'read'.

I can find nothing to suggest warforged can't take NPC class levels, anywhere. All the information in the ECS and Races of Eberron indicates they were designed as soldiers, pure and simple, and mass produced for outfitting armies. Their big advantage for this was not their 'superiority' in terms of PC levels, it was the fact they didn't tire and didn't bleed and followed orders (ie increased str, con, reduced wis, cha).

Custom warforged? Some were made but they were exceptions, not the rule. I stick by my assessment of them and their stat-bonuses/penalties.

If you like to disagree with the setting creator's vision of warforged, then be my guest. I'm just repeating what was said at the time, that the Standard Model warforged was a Fighter 2. I'd offer a quote, but this was from a conversation on one of the huge Ask Keith Baker threads from around 4-6 years ago.

Yes, custom warforged. If I remember correctly, there was a short story included with (I think) the Eberron DM's Screen that featured a set of six custom-built warforged rangers/scouts with magical camouflage abilities that were being traded to Cyre in exchange for an older model WF archer (Pierce).

Even if the default, mass-produced warforged was a Fighter, it was still well within the means of House Cannith to produce non-standard warforged with different stat arrays (even a +2 CHA model designed to command other WF soldiers). Giving them a +2/-2 array both recognizes this capacity for customization while also giving them the net -2 they had in the original version.

It's not that big a loss, unfortunately. Most warforged were made as grunts, pure and simple - they weren't even fighters, they were warriors - and a few of the smarter ones were artificers or wizards (well, magewrights more frequently) to act as medics and spell support.

...
I agree that PCs would be exceptional, but that doesn't mean the race was made for those exceptions; you can work those in by choosing your stats, not in re-writing the racial concept.

Actually, this isn't true at all. One of the things that made Warforged inherently superior to a normal human solider was that they were ALL supposed to have PC class levels - there were no warrior or magewright warforged (except in their MM3 entry, which the Eberron fans widely condemned at the time). IIRC, Keith Baker mentioned this in response to someone asking why warforged were 'worth the money' if they weren't a +1 race. The "standard" warforged (re: majority), according to that conversation, was a level 2 fighter.

Anyway, here's the conversions I've been working on lately:

Changelings: +2 any stat (I liked the variable stat idea proposed earlier, but the mental stats make it unfeasible)
Shapechanger subtype, Medium, 30' move
Natural Linguist: Linguistics is a class skill
Slippery Minds: +2 racial v sleep and charm
Social Chameleon: +2 racial to Bluff, Intimidate, and Sense Motive
Minor Change Shape: as ECS (physical Disguise Self).
Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Any.

Kalashtar: +2 any stat
Human subtype, Medium, 30' move
Natural Mindlink: at-will one-to-one telepathy within 30'
Mind Shield: +2 racial v mind-affecting & possession
Social Savant: +2 racial to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate
Dreamless: Sleep with dreams; immunity to dream and nightmare spells and similar effects.

Shifters: +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Int
Shapechanger subtype, Medium, 30' move
Low Light Vision
Animal Heritage: +2 Acrobatics and Climb
Shifting: as Rage, almost verbatim.
Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Orc, and Sylvan.

Warforged: +2 any stat, -2 any stat. Warforged were manufactured according to order specifications, therefore they could be as strong, agile, tough, smart, perceptive or commanding as the commission required. Usually tough or strong, but not always.
Living Construct: as is in ECS, plus they do not take non-lethal damage from a forced march; Medium, 30' move
Composite Plating: +2 armor bonus (NOT natural armor). May be enchanted. Upgraded armors (mithral, adamantine, bronzewood) may be taken in lieu of two traits. 5% arcane spell failure.
Poker Face: +2 racial bonus to Bluff and Intimidate
Socially Inept: -2 racial penalty to Diplomacy and Sense Motive
Light Fortification: 25%
Slam: natural weapon (1d4+STR)
Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Any.

Personally, I'd like to see Dungeon Compendium, Vol 1 first, collecting and updating the best and/or most popular adventures published in Dungeon to date, along with any supplemental material needed to run those modules (i.e., any as-yet-unpublished-for-3.5 monsters, traps, equipment, spells, etc).