razzle's page

And all that's cool, but if you guys do another AP it would be nice if you laid off the slowly unfolding mystery climax. Every single AP you guys have done is all about the PCs finding things out piecemeal, one nibble at a time. For once it would be cool to have the party know who the bad guy is and what his plans are up front, if only to have a change of pace.

Take Burning Sky for instance. From the beginning you have a large organization you're fighting time and again. In the very first session the PCs have a very good idea of who the big boss at the "end" of the AP is going to be. Can they just go to the boss and kick its butt? No! In fact, at low levels they are doing everything they can to get as far away from the boss's forces as possible.

My players have responded more favorably to that style than to Paizo's APs. Don't get me wrong, they still enjoy the individual adventures. They are well designed with interesting encounters. The only big problem is that the table (and the PC party in character) wants to know the point of the campaign (and the unifying force) at lower levels. In some cases (not always, but sometimes) they want a campaign where they don't have to wait to look back and get that "oh, so that's what the plot was all about!" Instead they want to know up front what the goals are at the final endgame so that they can understand the importance of what their doing.

As a DM (and probably as designers), sure I can look at an adventure and say "Ah yes, what they're doing now is going to help the party reveal something that will eventually help them stop the first piece of Kyuss's plans". However, I can't share this with my players. The impact could be presented to them in game somehow as its happening, not a year or two after the fact. I know this sounds like a broken record, but Burning Sky is a good example of how to do this.

I am running a Burning Sky campaign right now and in reality the characters dont know all of the adversaries and the ultimate bad guys at all. The campaign has a slow build of story line but happens to drop characters in the middle of a war and give them an obvious initial enemy (Ragesians). I added a spolier tag so any WoBS players shouldnt read the next statement.

mwbeeler wrote:

===================

One barrel of oil.
159 liters.
$90.
===================
One printer ink cartridge.
20 Milliliters.
$45
===================

Printer ink is more like $25. But you're comparing a machined product (the cartridge costs money too) with what is essentially a raw material. That's not even apples and oranges, that's oranges and rocks.

Actually there are costs to pulling oil from teh ground and refining it for use (in cars and many other products).

A bit more on Law vs Chaos ...lifted from wikipedia

Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

Chaos implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.

Dwarven societies are usually lawful, while Elven societies are most often chaotic.

So using this info .... Drow arent trustworthy or honorable but they do grudgingly respect authority and at times are reliable (when it suits their ends). But they are also adaptable and resentful of authority. Drow are CHAOTIC in nature.

IconoclasticScream wrote:

The drow? They'll kill one another without a thought.

No! They have no remorse, certainly. So they kill without thinking of it as bad -- without a thought. This makes them evil. BUT they definetly think long before they kill. "Drow of the Underdark" states this emphatically throughout the text. They will not rashly or foolishly murder because if they don not succeed, or if they leave themselves vulnerable, they're toast. They plan; they enter conspiracies; they develop contingencies, etc. They ARE LAWFUL.

IconoclasticScream wrote:

People scheme and plot for power. These are the real heart and soul of drow society; the rigid order is a facade.

Your two statements seem contradictory to being Chaotic.

So being a good planner means you are a lawful person? So a terrorist is a lawful person? A criminal is a lawful person because they planned their crime to perfection? MMMM not so sure I buy that. I have an alarm on my house so a criminal must devise a way around it so they plan - would they just open my door up and take my stuff if they could? You bet but there are counter measures that prevent it so the criminals plan and plot.

Drow don't kill each other unless they have an advantage and wont get caught but they do it without real regard either. Since folks are quoting books the War of the Spider Queen books - a party of high level Drow go on a plane hopping mission. At all points they scheme to kill one another for some personal gain - even when the mission is in the service of helping their patron goddess and benefitting the society as a whole. Definitely doesnt sound lawful to me .... ill take jim down because I dont like him even though it puts at risk not only myself but possibly all my fellow citizens.

I don't have drow of the underdark, but here is my small take. If a drow had to choose between themselves and their society, they would choose themselves. If a priestess of Lolth had to choose between sacrificing her own life to save Lolth, or living on at the cost of Lolth being destroyed, she would typically choose to live on.

A duergar on the other hand, would be more willing to sacrifice themselves to grease the gears of Duergar society. A duergar would take suicidal action if so ordered by a superior.

Drow are chaotic. Duergar are lawful. Both are horribly evil.

I get your point about barbarians etc. but drow are a civilized chaotic; their civilization just happens to be built upon the whims of those in power (ultimately Lolth). Lolth demands loyalty, but I'm not sure she gets any more loyalty than her followers feel is in their best interests to give her. And I've always felt that her need to demand loyalty stemmed from the understanding that this is a fundamentla lack in her people.

Barbarian societies have leaders and structure. Barbarians have concepts such as honour and loyalty. It doesn't make them lawful.

Drow and barbarians are just focused on different aspects of chaos.

Ok - so thats what I was trying to say! Nice post!

IMO Drow are CE. Individually they are focused solely on their own gain and collectively it is the same - a house plots against another house. They will gladly take advantage of any situation to remove their rivals - even if it threatens their society (killing off a rival priestess while the city is under attack or manipulating enemies to attack their rivals). The only laws of Drow society is that the strong rule and the weak leave, die or serve. Worship of Lolth is not really voluntary either since it is mandated and enforced by the strong matriarchy which is run by the priestesses.

I think that lawfulness cannot be gleaned by whether someone is orderly. I can be a reckless individual but a meticulous groomer or have a neat home but still try to burn my neighbors house down because it blocks my view. I think of lawful societies and think that the individuals there think the laws serve to make the collective and individual stronger and better and serve some purpose. Drow manipulate any rule or law to their individual benefit. There really is no Drow law other than "Don't get caught".

Maybe the crux of the issue is more about the collective versus the individual. Drow are powerful but are rarely united in their quest for power and tend to oppose each other as often as they oppose others. But a lawful society is united to some common or higher purpose and is bigger than 1 individual - this is the antithesis of the Drow personality.

Disclaimer - I ran a society of Lawful Neutral dark elves in one of the campaigns I ran.

Curses! How do I get the complete Savage Tide Adventure Path Now? Ah well. The local gaming shop might have a copy.

It is available as PDF from Paizo now .... thanks Paizo!

This is the game I GM which just got started on 8/13/07. We are all in NC, and all are long time gamers. Enjoy!

Hey Man ...where are you based in NC? I am in Charlotte ...

Anyone? Anyone know when/if Dungeon #139 will be available on PDF?

Any idea on when the PDF version of this will be available?

I am also one of the confused. I subscribed to Pathfinder and Gamemastery. I received a charge for D2 which included shipping which was different than my shipping selection. I selected to have both items shipped at once using UPS for ~$7 and change. I was charged $6 and change for shipping. My sidecart says D2 will ship when RoTRL #2 is available. What happened to RoTRL #1? And will that ship with W1?

I spent truck loads of quarters on Gauntlet and Tempest.