project2501's page

Shaken is in the Glossary on p.401, along with the other conditions. :)

Hah, guess I didn't hit find enough times to get all the way through the book. Thanks for pointing this out.

Performing some thread necromancy here I have to say that the latest version of salamas Pathfinder sheet is one of the best I have used for any system. Its well organized and looks great. Character sheets that look like Microsoft Office documents always take me out of the game a little, and overly ornate sheets usually don't organize data well. This one avoids both those pitfalls with aplomb.

I give this sheet an A- for user interface design (there is block of tickboxes in the spellbook section that doesn't have a description and their use isn't immediately clear to me) hand an A for style.

I've been scouring the print book for the rules for shaken with no luck so I fired up the pdf version and did a find for the term. It looks like the only place that outlines exactly what happens when the shaken status condition is applied is in the Bard Dirge of Doom ability description. Not exactly the place a fighter looking for the effects of intimidate is going to look. Possibly worse is that the only mention of the effects in the combat rules chapter is the Attack Roll Modifier chart. Which could mislead players into thinking that the only effect of this status is a -2 on attack rolls.

This could be remedied with an index (which the beta is lacking, and I'm sure the final will have) but it would make sense to compile a list of status conditions and their effects and publish them in either the combat rules or description chapters.

Just a thought. :)

The wording is... vague with regards to spells known but the text of the spells per day section is essentially the same as it is for every other Arcane PrC and the same as it has been for other PrCs. Sorcerers gain spells known right along with their spells per day just as they do with every other Arcane PrC. There are 3 spell levels lost which means Sorc 10/ DD 10 is casting 8th level spells at 20th level.

Wow. An entire reply wiped out by a cat on the back button.... Lets see if I can retype this. I hope I didn't leave anything important out. :(

The wording is actually pretty specific, even if the intention is not. The DD PrC states 'He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting'. Sorcerer spells known is not tied either to ECL or spells/day so as the combination stands DD/Sorcs do not progress in spells known past level 5. Also, the Wizard class can know all spells, so it would make sense that other arcane PrCs might be able to progress in spells known while this one might not.

I agree though, that the intention is not clear. If DD/sorcs are meant to progress in spells known then it should be stated as such explicitly.

If it is intended that DD/Sorcs should not learn new spells after 5th there is a way to get these lost spell levels/spells per day back. If a 20th level DD/Sorc were to take the meta magic feats he could cast a 5th level spell 6 times a day, then power it up with meta-magic and cast it again as a 6th, 7th or 8th level spell. This would have the effect of boosting his total spells per day from 30 if hes capped at 5th level spells known, to 52, capped at 8th level spells known. While he wouldn't actually be learning new spells he could buff up the ones he had to be a bit more effective at higher levels of play.

This then opens the door for a choice: does the player select feats that improve his melee effectiveness, or take the meta-magic feats, allowing him to better utilize his sorcerous potential?

For a pure Caster, losing ANY casting levels is really not worth it. But for any none pure casting build, the DD is a huge win as is.

I think the class looks good and should be left as is.

I agree. When I rolled up my Draconic Bloodline Sorc, I was lucky enough to get an 18 and a 17. The 18 I dropped into CHA and the 17 into STR. Then at level 4 I put my stat bonus into STR bringing it up to 18. So now my full attack looks like this = AB = 7 (4 from STR, 2 from BAB and 1 from weapon focus claws (which may be a house rule, I'm not sure)) and damage is 14-20 (2d6+8 if both land). This is in a 4th level caster.

Once you add DD to that this class really takes off. By level 9 I will have a 22 Str, bringing my damage to 18-28 (2d6+16, again assuming both attacks land). At level 20 I'll be breathing acid for 17d6 4 times a day and flying at a speed of 90 feet.

Now for paying the piper. Most of the posts here mention losing 3 caster levels, but they don't mention losing spells known. Since the DD doesn't gain spells known, it doesn't matter that at level 20 a 10 Sorc / 10 DD can cast up to 4 8th level spells a day because the highest level he can know will be level 5. This is a big drawback if you're playing all the way to 20. I've never actually had a character make it all the way there but I imagine that a single 5th level spell (even if you can cast it 6 times a day) isn't going to cut it at that level.

Being limited to 5th level spells also means he loses the bonus spells Fly, Fear, Spell Resistance and Wish. Perhaps more importantly he loses the spells Form of the Dragon 1-3. Although he'll eventually get FotD 1 and 2 as a DD ability, hes still left unable to use FotD 3 even at 20th level.

Add in the faster increasing BAB and the improvements to Breath Weapon and Wings and you have a very interesting class, both in combat and in role playing. This is especially true if you play to the personality of your dragon type, and/or your setting is at all draco-phobic, forcing you to use precious spells per day on disguise self. Its great at up close damage with some fun powers and a bag of magic tricks. Pick spells and feats that compliment your abilities instead of trying to maximize your spell potential and I think you'll find this class is a lot of fun to play.