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Are wrote:

I agree with most of what you said in terms of the rule system and improvement of such, so I'm happy to track down some developer posts for you :)

Thank you 'Are'. This is exactly what Kewlpack and I wanted to know. Just some simple links to authoritative sources settles this quickly. I just wish they had been easier to locate. Kewlpack's and my searches together did not lead to these.

I want to apologize to everyone else, because I realize this was the wrong place to try to make my point. I did not mean to say that Pathfinder is no good. If I thought such a thing I would not put the time into it. Pathfinder is quite good, much better than its precursors in my opinion. I am not new to Pathfinder, but I don't have copious amounts of time to sift through all rules every time a character chooses a yet unplayed and controversial feat in our group. Plus, Kewlpack and I are the only ones in our group willing to search for answers instead of going with the misinformed misinterpretation of the moment. I also don't have time to peruse forums for answers buried among end user posts that lack references. 'Are' solved my issue very simply with three links. I did not need the developers to answer me on this. I needed to see a developer's word on this or something similar that addresses the crux of the issue.

However, I admit that I somewhat hoped to try to get the designers' attention. I believe that a few explicit definitions and minor refactorings in the core rulebook could clear up a world of confusion. I do such things for a living in the world of Internet and Software, and I would be willing to give some input. Those of us that rely on the published materials as the source and don't have time to spend on forums could greatly benefit from such a thing.

By the way, the FAQ really does not address the question unless you are aware of the other posts to which 'Are' referred me. This is assumed knowledge, and assumed knowledge always leads to endless discussion, as each newcomer tries to understand.

Thanks to all who gave additional advice.

Again, this was not personal, just venting a little frustration.


If we can't rely on the published rule books to understand the rules, then the rule system is broken. It makes no sense to have to search for developer comments in thousands of forum posts to be able to understand the rules. As far as efficient search, the number of results...
- for "vital strike" is 4,622 - no chance of me going those results. The fact that there are this many forum discussion involving "vital strike" indicates a problem with the rules. Good rules should not generate thousands of discussions.
- for "vital strike full-attack action" is 753 - still no chance of me going through them all.
- for "vital strike clarification" is 167 - OK I tried going through some of these but there was just a lot of user comments with conflicting interpretations that often ignored what I found in the books. I did not come across a single post from a developer.
- the FAQ? I saw the FAQ everyone keeps pointing me to. Read my post. That FAQ does not answer the question and conflicts with what is in the books, not just one minor mistake, but multiple cases in several variations of using Vital Strike in combination with other actions, both standard and full-round actions.

Someone please point me to just one developer discussion on this topic, besides the one useless FAQ answer, because I can't find that needle in this haystack. I will be happy to see it, and admit that I could easily have missed it in this heap.

As the customer community we should be pushing back on the developers to improve their material. I did go through all the errata and cross referenced multiple rule books to determine my interpretation. I spent significant time on this, which I am being told, though arguably correct according to the published materials, was a waste of my time. I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO GO THROUGH ALL THIS!

Pathfinder is better (more clear and concise) than 3.5, which was better (more reasonable and logical) than AD&D, but being better still sucks without quality control. A lack of quality begs for market competition.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

[Note that my tongue is in my cheek, where admittedly I am biting on it out of frustration, i.e. I am being facetious, but with serious intent. In other words, don't take it personally!]

Hi, I am the DM that kewlpack is referring to. Let me please explain my rationale, because I want clarification, preferably from a Pathfinder developer (if it is not too much trouble to assist the paying customer). The rule system is complicated and at times contradictory, as this example shows. I don’t like a rule system that requires assumed knowledge and cross-referential analysis to understand.

The key sentence here is "When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage.” This is a matter of determining the meaning of “attack action”, and properly parsing the sentence.

An ‘attack’ can be a standard action, part of an attack in a standard action that can result in subsequent attacks, or part of a full-attack in a full-round action (there may be more, but this starts to illustrate my point). The term ‘full-attack action’ is quite clear, but the term ‘attack action’ is used in a variety of ways:

1) See the Core Rulebook, page 124 for an example of the phrase ‘attack action’ being used in a feat, “Great Cleave”, that involves multiple attacks during a standard action.

2) See the reference to ‘the attack action’ on page 178, which refers to page 182 where the exact term ‘attack action’ is not defined. This seems to imply that an ‘attack action’ is a ‘Standard Action’, but does not exclude it from being part of a full-attack or other multiple attacks.

3) See Sunder on page 201 for an example of an ‘attack action’ being something in place of a melee attack, implying it is not strictly a Standard Action, but this then depends on the meaning of ‘melee attack’, which is used profusely and inconsistently though never defined. The closest is footnote 6 on page 183: "Some combat maneuvers substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full-attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity. Others are used as a separate action.” This supports my interpretation.

I took it to mean ‘an attack’, which can be done as part of a standard action or a full-round action, i.e. as one of many attacks.

Next comes the sentence parsing. The clause "you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage.” could be parsed to have two different meanings:
1) "you can make one attack, at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage” meaning you literally can make only one attack, it is at your highest attack bonus, and it deals additional damage.
2) "you can make one attack, at your highest base attack bonus, that deals additional damage” meaning that you can make only one attack (one that is at your highest bonus) that deals this additional damage, and any other attacks do not.

The Vital Strike series of feats are the only ones that use this exact phrasing, whereas others explicitly use the phrases “a single attack” or “a full-attack action” to distinguish between one-and-only-one attack or something that is part of a full-round action that could include multiple attacks. So I assumed that there was a reason for this, and that it was to be interpreted according to the second parsing, because the missing specific phrases would have been more consistent with the first parsing.

I realize that I have ignored the phrase ‘single attack’ in the descriptive text of the Vital Strike feats. This is because the descriptive text tends to have generalized and sometimes conflicting statements, so I defer to the specified subsections of the feat format as stated on page 113, where the descriptive text is not technically part of the feat definition. To use information in the descriptive text to decide what the rule means would be like using something in the abstract of a specification (RFC) to determine how to implement the specification (this is what I do for a living for 20+ years, analyze protocol and software specs to determine how they are to be implemented.) The abstract is just a descriptive introduction and has no further purpose in defining the spec, as is the descriptive text at the beginning of a feat.

However, since that phrase is there, I will grant Kewlpack the right to restrict his Barbarian as he wishes. God help him if that barbarian gets a chance to refute him face-to-face.

Yet, there is one last issue here! How do you know for what the Vital Strike feat is meant when this asserted intention is not in the text? This is assumed knowledge (supposedly said by the developers). The FAQ being referenced herein says nothing of the sort. Furthermore, there are several precedents that contradict what the FAQ states: See page 109 of the NPC codex, the Grove Guardian Half-Elf Monk, which states "Against foes too large to grapple or immune to stunning, she uses her ki pool to boost her movement, then Spring Attack with Improved Vital Strike to make hit and run attacks." (Find a similar examples on Page 206 and 218.) There is another example on Page 124, the Axe Lord Dwarf Paladin, who "uses Improved Vital Strike and Cleave if he has a few targets close together", which goes against what Quintain said, that Vital Strike cannot be combined with other standard actions such as Cleave. In other words, there is plenty of official precedence showing that Vital Strike can be combined with both standard actions and full-round actions, and therefore is not exclusively for occasions where the martial character only gets a single (one-and-only-one) attack. If it can be combined with other full-round actions, then why not with a full-attack action?

So, now for the real reason that I posting such an in depth analysis:
If it is not too much bother, I humbly ask that someone who can act officially for Pathfinder to kindly address the discrepancies and inconsistencies in the rule system. Either fix them, or at least reply to some of these disdainful threads.

By the way. two weapon fighting is another vexing, convoluted rule. It requires one to locate the correct phrase under the Full-Attack action of the Combat chapter, page 187. There is no reference to this critical information within the Two-Weapon Fighting feats, or the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack to which they reference. It is unfortunate that the players don’t all read and memorize the core rulebook cover-to-cover, but it does happen. This has resulted in much abuse and arguing over what a two weapon fighter can do in a round. It could be fixed simply by putting the phrase, “when making a full-attack action”, in the feat and/or special attack definitions.