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So, everyone agrees that the crossbow isn't the best weapon there is. But can a magus use it effectively combining some features of the crossbow and the class?

1) For a starlit span magus that can only spellstricke within the first range increment, the crossbow has the best accurate range. A shortbow only has 60ft and a longbow has the volley trait - so if you don't MC into Fighter for point-blank stance it is bad for spellstrike. Crossbow gives accurate spellstrike range of up to 120ft!

2) By level 2 you seem to be able to get 2 attacks going before needing to reload. First, your Spellstrike Shot and the second one via Force Fang. Force Fang says it replaces all weapon statistics and basically only uses the weapons reach or range. You don't Strike with the weapon so the crossbow doesn't need to be reloaded. And Force Fang is one action so at high levels you can fire up to 3 force shots.

So, our sniper magus can spellstrike with a heavy crossbow from 120ft on the first turn, then follow up with 1 to 3 bolt(s) of force at the same range on turn 2! And then either take a break to reload or switch to spells or a melee weapon or whatever.

Maybe still not optimal but a unique way to get around reloading. And with casting Shield befor the Strike for Arcane Cascade or MCing (Ranger) for crossbow goodies, the first Spellstrike can even hit harder.


One of my players now has Stunning Fist so I have to clarify a question.

The feat says "If either Strike hits and deals damage, ...". English isn't my first language and I found conflicting interpretations for that.

So, does Stunning Fist trigger when ONE OF THE TWO Strikes hit or only when BOTH hit?


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Hello all,

I want to port the character of a player from PF1 to PF2. Said character is an Inquisitor. So I thought about what class would best fit an Inquisitor and the Investigator is a good chassis for the detective-of-a-church type.

So I want to homebrew an "Inquisition" methodology. My ideas:

- The skill & skill feat the methology gets would be Religion and Student of the Canon. You need to know the rules to use them against your targets. This part is simple.

- The "Lie Detector" Investigator feat can also be taken with this methology.

- I would want to switch the Key ability to Wisdom and let Devise a Stratagem use Wisdom instead of Intelligence. This would give a better Perception and would synergize with Cleric dedication, which fits.

- If the methodology need something else I thought about giving the effects of Deadly Simplicity and letting Devise a Stratagem work the deities favored weapon. If the weapon is not Agile or Finesse then the weapon die gets reduced by one step (or two steps when 2-handed weapon), to keep it in line with weapons with those traits. It's a bit clunky maybe. :)

What do you think? Is the stat-switch alone be strong enough? Would it cause more problems than good? Is the nerf to use any weapon with DaS balanced? Are there any other cool and fitting ideas for effects of an "Inquisition" methodology?

Thanks :)


So, let's say I am a monk, I enter Crane Stance and then want to do another Strike than crane wing attack. What is required? Let's also say Crane stance is my only stance.

Stance Trait wrote:
A stance lasts until you get knocked out, until its requirements (if any) are violated, until the encounter ends, or until you enter a new stance, whichever comes first.

The trait text doesn't mention you can voluntarily end a stance other than violating the requirement. But Crane Stance only has unarmored as requirement. But I think a stance should be dismissable. So:

1) Can you just make another Strike to end the stance? It actually forbids you to make other strikes and it wouldn't go against the requirement.

2) Can you leave a stance without entering a new one? Is that a free action?

3) Do you have to wait until the encounter is over or you are knocked out or do you have to don armor to have the stance end? I can't enter another stance since I only have Crane.

4) other.


The hunters edges of Flurry and Precision don't seems to require weapon or natural attacks. Flurry needs attacks and precision talks about "when you hit" which also happens on spell attacks.

So, with the Precision edge and a caster dedication, could I make a Cantrip Warrior? Dealing 1d4+1d8+3 with Produce Flame or 1d6+1d8+1 with Acid Splash at lvl2?

Would the precision damage even out the slightly lower spell hit chance of a caster dedication?


I have a question regarding the summon spells. Can you summon creatures adjusted with a weak or elite template? Per the rules, those templates neither change the creature type nor the rarity. Nothing in the summoning spells actively prohibits those templates but I'm not sure.

This would help with the currently a bit empty summoning lists due to not that many bestiaries out.
But it also would help creatures of certain levels. Summon Animal 4 summons up to a level 3 creature, Summon Animal 5 up to a level 5 one. A level 4 creature can't be summoned be the lower spell and is a level behind already for the higher spell. If you could summon a weak level 4 creature with SA3 and an elite level 4 creature with SA5, that would be nice.

What would you say? Is this within the rules? Would it be unbalanced (I think not)?


I don't like PF2's implementation of lockpicking which uses multiple rolls with no in-world effect of each roll. So I thought of an alternative that somehow replicates the effect of those many rolls: That difficult locks take expotentially more time and have high risk of critical failure.

Goal
Lockpicking only takes 1 Thievery roll. More complex locks that take multiple rolls should just be many separate locks. This way, there is actually a way for characters in the world to see if a complex lock is partially unlocked: 2 out of 3 locks are open.

Changes to Locks/Manacles/Devices
Locks don’t dictate the amount of rolls they need to be overcome but instead a timeframe. Higher quality locks might also require a minimum Thievery proficiency. The DCs to pick different qualities of locks doesn’t change.
The timeframes and minimum proficiencies for different lock qualities are:

  • - Poor lock: 2 actions
  • - Simple lock: 4 rounds
  • - Average lock: 6 minutes
  • - Good lock: 1 hour, needs expert
  • - Superior lock: 8 hours, needs master

Changes to the Lockpicking activity
Your proficiency in Thievery reduces the amount of time you need to pick locks as follows:

  • - Expert: timeframes as if lock was 1 category simpler
  • - Master: timeframes as if lock was 2 categories simpler
  • - Legendary: timeframes as if lock was 3 categories simpler
This reduction can’t reduce the timeframe below that of a poor lock.

When you try to unlock a lock you spend an amount one timeframe depending on the lock and your proficiency working. After that, make a Thievery roll.
Critical Success: You either unlock the lock directly or spend one timeframe again immediately (starting before the end of your next turn in encounter mode) to unlock and leave no trace of your tampering.
Success: You found a way to unlock the lock. Spend two timeframes again immediately (starting before the end of your next turn in encounter mode) to unlock the lock.
Failure:: If the timeframe you spent unlocking was longer than 1 minute you break your tools.
Critical Failure: You break your tools.

Changes to Skill Feats

  • - Quick Unlock: The duration of timeframes for lockpicking is halfed (1 action instead of 2 actions, 2 rounds instead of 4, ...)

Result
First spending some time working and then making a roll (and maybe spend more time) mirrors the mechanic of crafting and so might feel familiar.
Difficult locks already break your tools on a failure to replicate the high crit fail chance of multiple diffucult rolls. The needed proficiency removes the chance of low level thieves unlocking a level 17 superior lock. It is used for traps so that's nothing new. Having unnoticed tempering cost time makes for a decision point in combat.

The timeframes are chosen so that the for the 2-action version, a critical success can unlock with 2 actions while a success takes 3 rounds, approximating the default procedure.
A crit. Success on a 4-rounds lock means unlocking it within a fight, success needing way over a minute. A crit. Success on a 6-minute lock unlocks it withing a 10 minute slot, while a success needs two 10 minute slots.
Higher timeframes are actually not used because needed proficiencies reduce the timeframes. They are noted to show the theoretical progression so that a GM can some special locks take longer to unlock.
Quick Unlock lets success on a 6-minute lock take a 10 minute activity (3x3 minutes), success on a 4-action lock take under a minute or success on a 2-action lock take one round.

What do you think?


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The rules on Critical Specialization says, if you have access to it you gain the Crit. Spec. effect on >attacks< with weapons. Attacks, not just strikes.

Maneuvers (Shove, Trip, Disarm,...) are attacks.

Do I get the Crit. Spec. effect when I crit. succeed on a maneuver with a weapon/unarmed attack for with I have Crit. Spec.?
So, if I crit. Disarm with a ranseur, can I additionally move the target 5ft? If I crit. Shove with a warhammer, is the target also knocked prone?
Edit: And if I have Crit. Spec. for the brawling group, can the target be slowed if I crit. succeed a maneuver with a free hand (since fist is brawling)?


After reading the rules, I'm really confused as how thrown weapons are handled with regards to feats. It seams they work neither with feats for melee nor ranged weapons.
The problem is, many feats just speak of "melee weapons" in their prereqs and action text. But if you throw a melee weapon... is it still a melee weapon even though you make a ranged strike?

So can you please help me answering these questions? And explain the answer?

1) Barbarians Rage says damage bonus with "melee weapons". But since there is the feat Raging Thrower, I guess I normally don't get the damage bonus to a thrown hatchet (a melee weapon). Right?

2) My Double Slice Fighter holds a hatchet on each hand - prereq. for Double Slice. Can I throw those with double slice?

3) My Fighter has the Point-Blank Shot stance. Can I go into that stance when only wielding a hatchet (melee weapon)? A javelin (ranged weapon)? Does the stance end as soon as I throw the weapon? Do I have to hold my lucky Shuriken in my other hand to not lose the stance while throwing javelins?

4) My Fighter has Assisting Shot requiring a strike with a ranged weapon. I think I can do that with a javelin. But with a hatchet? Does that count as a ranged weapon when thrown?

5) I suppose I can't use any feat the requires a "ranged weapon with reload 0" even if I have Quick Draw and many javelins. Right?

So far the only ranged feats that clearly seem to work with thrown weapons are Raging Thrower and Hunters Aim. For some it is unclear if thrown melee weapons can count as ranged weapons (Assisting Shot). Others are... clunky (Point-Blank Shot).


After reading some threads about Class DC confusion I have wondered what it is even used for now.

- casters cast spells with their key ability but have a seperate prof. progression for casting.
- casters use their casting progression even for powers. (right?)
- Most other classes that use powers DON'T use their key ability. Paladins use CHA, Monks (probably) use WIS.
- Martials might attack with thier key ability. But that is dictated by the weapon, not the key ability.

Class DC had some use in the PT, when it was used for dying saving throws for example. But now using Class DC for some action seems more the exception than the rule.
I have the feeling that every class having a class DC is a bit confusing since so few abilities use it now. :|

Am I overlooking something?

EDIT: Okay, class DC is mostly used by non-power effects. Mostly riders on attacks and crit. effects.


Some points that came up by the devs:
- it has been revealed that wizards write a thesis. That sounds like subclass and also pretty freeform as to what the focus of the thesis is
- arcane list is big because it has to have spells for every school. That makes arcane list better than the other 3 lists

So, I suspect "Thesis" replaces school specialization for wizards. It can have a similar flavor of spevializing in a kind of makig without forcing itself into "one school spell per spell level". It also is more open to stuff like elemental specialization.

I wouldn't be surprised to not have schools for wizards anymore now.


I am unsure how Barbarians and thrown weapons work together.

- some melee weapons have the "Thrown" property which allows to make a ranhed attack and add full strength to damage.
- Barbarians rage adds a damage bonus when attacking with melee weapons.

Rage doesn't require melee attacks, just attacks with melee weapons, right? So I would get the damage bonus when throwing a melee weapon?


https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42eyl?Happy-Holidays-Paizo#6

Now that Dino Fort is semi-officially in the game, let's discuss. ;)

It's as primal as it gets, I think. And I am intrigued by the duration extension mechanic. It is "concentration" for the longer term. For short duration spells you have to sacrifice actions, for this spell slots. I can live with more spells using that. Undead controlling would be a candidate.

As for cheese: Can the TRexes leave the fort? Is this the "Summon Mounts " spell for a party where everyone has the unannounced "Dino Rider" feat? :)


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While going through the items of the Resonance Test I noticed a change in the Trinkets.

The Bloodseeker Beak and the Fear Gem don't require the user to have/use Sneak Attack and Intimidating Strike anymore. They can be used without those attacks and just give a bonus if you have them.

Fear Gem even gives you the Intimitating Strike feat for the attack.

This is a good step and makes those items more useful. I hope many other trinkets also get more useful.


High level ancestry feats have the (perceived or real) problems that a) it is a bit silly to become elfier or dwarfier as you level and b) there might not be enough interessting feats for your character.

I have two suggestions:

- introduce ancestry feats that require a specific ancestry and class an give a class specific benefit. This fills the role of the old racial favored class bonus.

- introduce a feat type that can be chosen instead of ancestry feats that doesn't require a specific ancestry. Those should be high level, at least 9, and give benefits to a particular theme. Call them Destiny Feats.

Noe ancestry feat slots can be used to specialise as an elf wizard or dwarf cleric. Or you leave the "where do I come from" question behind and ask "where do I go" and choose a destiny feat.
Both might help to let higher level ancestry feat slots be interesting and of some narrative meaning. And the first suggestion doesn't even break with the ancestry theme.


Hello everyone,

this will be a long post because I want to share an idea for an alternative multiclass system.

This multiclass system tries to keep PF2s spirit of never reducing the class feature advancement of your primary class but still allow multiclassing. This system doen't need specificly tailored multiclass archetypes and tries to make a generic approach instead.

There are multiclass feats that give you the class features of classes and let you take their Class Feats, albeit at a lower level.

Classes

This system differentiates between generic class features and class specific features.

Structure

Generic features are the ancestry, skill and general feats, skill increases and ability score increases every class gets at the same levels. Those are not changed by this system, will be gained on a character level basis and are seperate from ones class. If this system talks about class features, only really class specific features are meant.

All levels of a class at which you gain class specific class features will be called Core Levels here. Normally that are all odd levels, with some even levels for high level spell casters. Core Levels are the hardcoded parts of a class and are gained in a linear manner ordered by level (as it is now).
If the first level of a class also lets you choose a level 1 class feat, this class feat slot is part of the class features at first level and can always only hold a level 1 class feat regardless when you get those class features.

Class Feats stay the same as now. Your maximum effective class level for choosing Class Feats for a class will be the number of levels at which you gained a Core Level or a Class Feat or Multiclass Feat for that class times 2 (up to your character level). If you only have a single class this number will always be at least your level so don't worry about it, it only has a meaning for secondary classes.

Changes

Each class gets an associated skill that fits the class. Examples of those skills can be found in the current Multiclass Archetype Dedication feats (e.g. Relion for Cleric). Use your judgement here, I won't include a list.

The rogues skill feat at each odd level counts as a class feature of that Core Level and not as a generic feature.

The monks Incredible Movement changes its advancement from "every 3 monk levels" to "every 3 character levels up to your effective monk level". It also only counts as a class feature at Core Level 3.

Notes: Every feature advancing in a way that makes it advance at even levels should be handled like the monks Incredible Movement. I probably forgot some other problematic features. Those will have to be added here.

Advancement

At first level you select a class and get all features of Core Level 1 as normal with PF2. This is then your primary class. You automatically gain the features of that classes Core Levels when you reach a respective character level. At every other level you can select a class feat. All as normal.

A change is that the amount of HP gained per per level is based on the class of which you gain a Core Level if it's your primary class or for which you take a Class Feat or Multiclass Feat.

This means other Archetype Feats must either give HP equal to the average of all your classes or provide their own HP per level. In the second case, use your judgement: 10 HP per level for a combat focussed archetype, 8 or 6 HP for other types.

Multiclass Feats

Multiclass Feats are feats that you can take instead of Class Feats (like archetypes). Multiclass Feats gain the class name of the class you take them for as a trait. They always count as one feat of that class for determining the effective level for class feats.

There are 6 multiclass feats of which only the first 3 are really needed. The 2 other dedications are there to make starting a second class at higher levels more rewarding instantly. The last feat is only needed if you want to allow class changing.

Basic Class Dedication (2):

Traits: Multiclass, Dedication

Prereqisites: 16 in one of the classes key ability scores, Trained in the associated skill

Select a class that you don't yet have. You receive the first level class features of that class. You count as having Core Level 1 of that class.

You increase your proficiency in the listed starting proficiencies to that classes value if it is higher than your current proficiency. You don't gain the Key Ability Score and it's ability score increase.

To calculate the number of initial trained skills and signature skills, calculate the average of your current and the new classes number (add together and divide by 2), rounded down. If this number is higher than your curent one, you gain a number of trained skills or signature skills equal to the difference. Choose signature skills from the new classes list.

After taking this feat you can take class feats for that class.

Special: If you take this feat at level 2, you don't receive some features of the new classes first level. Choose the first point that applies:

- If the class has a special entry on which class features you don't receive for it as a secondary class at level 2 you don't get those
- If the first level grants a Class Feat you don't get that
- If the class grants spellcasting, cantrips and 1st level spells at level 1 you get 1 less cantrip known (and can prepare one less if you prepare) and get 1 less 1st level spell slot.
- The DM can decide which feature you don't get or that you can't choose this secondary class now

You can gain the missed features later with the Basic Competence feat.

Special: Since this is a Dedication feat, you need to gain 2 other Multiclass Feats or Class Feats of this class before taking another dedication.

Notes: I'm not sure if the handling of initial proficiencies and trained & signature skills is balanced this way. The features you don't gain per the special rule should not be some that the class needs to function. Getting those later should be optional.

Basic Competence (2):

Traits: Multiclass

Prereqisites: Took Basic Class Competence at level 2 and got reduced class features

You receive the missing class features and lose any reduction in class features of your secondary class you might have from taking Basic Class Dedication.

Lower Class Cores (varies):

Traits: Multiclass

Prereqisites: Dedication in the class

Select the next Core Level you do not yet have in a class you have a dedication in. This feat has a level 3 levels higher than that (e.g. level 6 for Core Level 3).

You gain the selected Core Levels class features and count as having that Core Level.

You also gain the Core Level after the selected one of that class once you are 3 levels higher than that Core Level. This can happen now or when you level up later.

Special: You can take this feat multiple times as long as you qualify for it for a class.

Notes: The purpose of this feat is to get class features efficiently while having them lag a bit behind. This should be the normal multiclass feat after you take a dedication.

Advanced Class Dedication (6):

Traits: Multiclass, Dedication

Prereqisites: 18 in one of the classes key ability scores, Expert in the associated skill

As Basic Class Dedication but you also receive all class features of Core Level 3 and count as having Core Level 3 of that class.

Notes: This is a higher level entry point into a class, designed to get the first few levels at higher levels. You can't have more than one dedication per class.

Superior Class Dedication (10):

Traits: Multiclass, Dedication

Prereqisites: 20 in one of the classes key ability scores, Expert and one Skill Feat in the associated skill

As Basic Class Dedication but you also receive all class features of Core Level 3 and 5 and count as having Core Level 3 and 5 of that class.

Notes: This is a higher level entry point into a class, designed to get the first few levels at higher levels. You can't have more than one dedication per class.

Higher Class Core (varies):

Traits: Multiclass

Prereqisites: Dedication in the class

Select the next Core Level you do not yet have in a class you have a dedication in. This feat has a level 1 levels higher than that (e.g. level 4 for Core Level 3). This feat also gains the new classes name as a trait and counts as one feat of that class for determining the effective level for class feats.

You gain the selected Core Levels class features and count as having that Core Level.

Special: You gain the Enervated 1 condition as long as your level is less than the level of this feat + 2. You cannot remove this condition by any means while you don't have a high enough level. When you level is level of this feat + 2 you can remove the condition normally.

Special: You can take this feat multiple times as long as you qualify for it for a class.

Notes: This feat isn't really needed except to allow for changing your primary class since you need the latest Core Levels of the secondary class. The Enervated condition should hurt. This feat should only be attractive when you really want to change your primary class.

Additional Rules

Spell Slots

All spellcasting classes seem to give 2 slots for a spell level you just gained and increase this to 3 spell slots when you gain a level. Since with this multiclassing system the spell slot tables are problematic, how the number of spell slots is calculated changes.

When you gain a Core Level that gives you a new spell level (up to 9th), you gain 2 spell slots for that spell level. When your level (capped by the effective class level for secondary classes) is greater than that Core Level, the number of spell slots for that spell level rises to 3. This keeps the spell slot progression as is now but requires no table.

Multiclassing spellcasting classes will need some balancing so that you don't end up with too many spell slots per spell level. As a quick proposal I have this rule:

When multiclassing, every spellcasting class except your primary class has the spell slots it provides reduced by 1. You always have at least a minimum of 1 slot per level per class (plus any you would gain by wizard school or domain spells etc.).

Changing Primary Class

When taking a Higher Class Core with which the Core Level you gained is the highest Core Level of that class you could have with your level, you can designate that class as your primary class from now on. This process takes 1 week of downtime.

Your stats don't change but from now on, you automatically gain the Core Level of the class of this feat instead of your original primary class. You then have to take Class Core multiclass feats for your original class to advance it .

When changing your primary class, all Multiclass Feats for the new class are fixed as soon as you directly gain a Core Level and can not be retrained anymore.

Example:

At first level I take Cleric, no change here.

At second level, I choose to multiclass into Fighter and take the Basic Fighter Dedication. I receive the fighters Core Level 1s initial proficiencies and features but I do not gain its level 1 class feat.

At third level I autimatically get the Cleric's Core Level 3, which is second level spells.

At fourth level I choose a fighter class feat. As I only have the Fighter Dedication, I can select up to level 2 fighter class feats.

At fifth level I autimatically get the Cleric's Core Level 5, which is third level spells. I'll leave out those levels now.

At sixth level I take another fighter class feat. I have the dedication and one class feat already so the maximum level is 4 (2 levels times 2).

At eigth level I could take another dedication. Say I choose the Advanced Rogue Dedication. I would gain the features and proficiencies of its Level 1 and 3, including the level 1 class feat.

At tenth level, when I would choose a rogue class feat, I could only choose up to level 2 feats because even though I have the level 3 features, I only have one level at which I got rogue stuff. So 1 times 2 is 2.

At 14th level I could take the Lower Class Cores feat for Fighter and immediately gain the fighters Core Level 3 and 5 features as I already have the fighters Core Level 1 via its dedication.

Final Words

I hope I could describe what I wanted to show understandably. I guesss many aspects like number of cantrips, initial proficiencies, level requirements for the multiclass feats and much more will have to be balanced. I just wanted to share the basic concept for the system.

Thanks for reading and please share your thoughts. :)


Hello,

does the paladins Smite Evil attack and damage bonus also apply to spells?
I think yes, since it doesn't mention weapons and says "all damage" rolls explicitly.

So if I had a Paladin/Sorcerer combo, could I smite with Acid Splash, Shocking Grasp or even Vampiric Touch? Add Cha bonus to the touch attack and add my Paladin level to the damage?

What about ability damage? Could I add my Smite damage to the spell Calcific Touch?

Would that be HP damage or ability damage too (the latter option sounds a bit... evil)

Thanks