malcolm666's page

The question is: Does losing your Dex bonus to AC mean you lose your Dex modifier which is factored into the CMD.

And as a side Question: does losing your Dex bonus to AC mean you lose ALL dodge bonuses (not only the one from the Dodge feat which explicitly states that you lose the benefits of that feat if you lose your Dex bonus to AC)

my DM has the opinion blinded creatures do not lose their dex-bonus on cmd, because it is no penalty. is he right? he said: "...If it would apply in this case why are there multiple special rules which explicitly address the case where you lose your Dodge bonus to AC and in addition something applies which should be the normal rule in your interpretation.

For instance flat footed which explicitly mentions Dex bonus to CMD and the Dodge Feet which explicitly mentions that you lose the benefits from the Feat (1 Dodge bonus) when you lose Dex to AC.

Not the way I see it, penalties are clearly described as penalties in all descriptions ( –2 penalty to Armor Class), in addition the removal of a bonus is not a penalty in my opinion, it means a recalculation (without the called bonus)..."

i need help from the writer of the rules :)

It could be debatable if loosing your dex modifier to AC should count as penalty but in other rules penalties are always called explicitly that - penalties

Any penalties to a creature’s AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.

Penalty

Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score. Penalties do not have a type and most penalties stack with one another.

Bonus

Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.

so, to lose a bonus is a penalty, am i right?

RAW you would lose blinded your dex on AC not to CMD and your dodge to both of them. confusing.

that's why they should delete the 'to AC' in the blinded rule. everything would be clear as in 3.5

by RAW if you are blinded you will lose your dex bonus + dodge on AC but dex + dodge remain on CMD.

CMD is a new concept by pathfinder. i think they forgotten to delete all paragraphs 'to AC', cause in past only dex boni on AC were relevant and loseable. you couldn't lose your dex bonus on skills and saves in 3.5. the rule was on blinded, stunned, cowering and flat footed the same: 'loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)'

thats why there is no 'on AC and CMD' paragraph in the entire rulebook. thats why there are only 'penalties on DEX' in the CMD rule. in 3.5 there was no need for 'ignore' or 'lose' to CMD. fewer rules fewer problems in interpretation.

the best example is the dodge feat. you lose the bonus on AC when you lose dex on AC. all dodge boni you get on AC you can add to CMD. but no explicit rule all dodge you lose on AC will be lost on CMD too.

i think it is a design bug. pathfinder don't want you to lose your reflex dex bonus if you're stunned/cowering and retain dex + dodge on CMD if you're blinded.

raw you should lose in cowering and stunned your dex bonus on reflex and skill checks too. if blinded nothing.

CMD "...Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD..."

blind "...The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)..."

penalty "Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score. Penalties do not have a type and most penalties stack with one another..."

Invisible "...Invisible creatures are visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any) ..."

my DM has the opinion blinded creatures do not lose their dex-bonus on cmd, because it is no penalty. is he right?

does this mean, the dodge bonus also remains?

i'm a little bit confused because the rule don't clarify this.

then there is another problem ... if the Empowered Ray of Frost is 2nd level why should i get the metamagic feat heighten ... it is not necessary ... i can put the ray without a metamagic feat in a 2nd level slot (that is allowed) and voilà it is a 2nd level spell - new spell level, new DC ...

... seems it took a little bit long since 2009 to 'correct it the next time [he is able]'

ok, rules as written i am correct till he adjust the rules himself. i can life with that :D

**In all ways**, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot.

an Empowered Ray of Frost would use a 2nd level spell slot, and count as a **0th** level spell.

rules as written :)

-> last sentence: '... that is, if you put a cantrip via quicken in a 4th-level slot it is still a cantrip ...'

from section 'metamagic': ' ... In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot. ...'

don't ask me about heighten :) that is another problem

i am not sure, the rules changed since this thread started but rules as written:

from section 'magic': '... Once you've cast a prepared spell, you can't cast it again until you prepare it again. ...'

from section 'wizard': '... These spells (cantrips) are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. ...'

there is no rule like 'a spell from a level slot greater than 0 can't be cast again'!

that is, if you put a cantrip via quicken in a 4th-level slot it is still a cantrip. rules as written, you can cast a quickend cantrip again and again and again ... not the spell slots expends, the spells does.