Interesting, trex with a katana you say? ;) Actually tried to make something similar myself a few years back, a hippotamus with crane style. Sadly that druid got crushed by his own snake before his prime. :p
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There is an alternative class for rogue, the ninja that acts as a hot fix for the severely underwhelming rogue that makes it more balanced and more fun to play. I would recommend you to look at it, it even synergies better with your +2 in charisma.
That was what I thought, and no LazarX,, the white haired does not get everything prehensile gets, it does not get INT to hit, sadly.It sounds like it's supposed to. It gets Int to damage, and Int for CMB calculation, so it looks like Int was just simply left out for to hit. Yeah, I would like that being the case, but sadly as there are no faq/errata on it, it stands that the hex that gives hair, is better at fighting with it than the archetypes that sacrifices all hexes for it. Quite ironic if you ask me! :)
Thought about using level 2 spell at least for the specialization, if so I would say that both Blindness and Glitterdust would make good candidates, especially Glitterdust. Ill Omen is also good, maybe way too good if used via quicken or a familiar with wand. At least that is my thought about it.
That was what I thought, and no LazarX,, the white haired does not get everything prehensile gets, it does not get INT to hit, sadly.
Hmm, if one would take both Prehensile Hair and White haired witch how would those abilities stack with each other?
Really good guide so far! Just noticed you had mixed Evil Eye and Misfortune up.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the use of Bleeding Attack or Befuddling Strike clash with Offensive Defense?
I class the Pathfinder Savant as one of the most overpowered classes in the game. And there is only one reason for that, the Summoner spell list. Early entries for all summoner spells, Summon Monster VII as a level 5 spell? Where do I sign up? Just to mention a few other early entries haste, black tentacles, magic jar, dimension door, teleport, greater teleport, maze, and dominate monster. But if you actually want to have fun, ignore the summoner spell list, if you just want to build the strongest possible caster, here it is. Also you can steal the Overwhelming Presence spell from the Inquisitor spell list also, if you want to aoe stagger all opponents without a save.
How about +1hit/die, gain 1/2 (rounding up) when you don't have the normal sneak attack conditions? Hmm, that would not solve their bab problem, as it would still give them a late iterative, if it do not come together with fullbab, and than the extra hit would be, cake on cake. My thought is something in the line with, full bab, a feature like the duelist class, that lets you add dex damage to your attacks with some sort of cap. give them weapon finesse for free, perhaps contained to light armor only, to make it less dip friendly? And also make their will save, into a good save. It is not fair to only have the worst save in the game, as your good save. And why should the rogue fall as easy for mind tricks as the dumb fighter? I would also want to separate the talents into two categories, social and combat. So the rogue actually does not need to spend all talents on combat talents just to not fall leagues behind the rest. And make it so they get a social on even levels and a combat on uneven levels. Ofcourse this is not yet tested, but just ideas. But in my opinion it needs really much help, to function as it was thought.
Rogues are the only none spellcaster that does not have full bab, and what are they given instead? One of the most situation based class abilities in the game to make up for it, and as it stands now, even in a perfect situation for the rogue, the other martial will still do more damage than the rogue, and this with more health, ac and saves. So to summarize it, rogues are the squishiest melee fighter, that still demands them to look for tactical positions where they are extra vulnerable, and still do sub-par damage. Do anyone really find this fair or balanced in anyway? Should not the class that need to work to get into the right positions where they are exposed, especially when they are so frail, not be THE damage machine? Even bumping them to full bab will not make them the top martial class damage wise, even when sneak attacking. The rogue needs more. The rogue is playable, but far from fine, if your rogues does compete with your martial classes, then they are terrible under optimized.
Based off this thread I have managed to narrow my esoteric spell choices down to 9 contendors. I only get to pick 6 across the seven prestige class levels. The below is the list I made. I'm looking on feedback about which spells to pick and why. If you can think of spells not listed feel free to suggest them, but please include reasoning. The best thing you could do is take 6 early entry spells from the summoner list, and maybe overwhelming presence from inquisitor. The summoner class lets you get early entry of, dimension door, teleport, greater teleport, greater invis, magic jar, haste, spell turning, greater dispel, wall of stone, dominate monster, planar binding line, summon monster line(I really do not think there is any stronger pick then summon vii as a level 5 spell, you should avoid taking it as it just screws the game). And could anyone explain for me why the summoner gets all these early entries, that is a riddle to me.
If you are going for a trip build with dex you got no need for Agile Manuevers as Weapon finesse fixes that part for you as you make trip as a part of an attack.
My thought was mostly on critical focus, and a better weapon, as it stands both the elven curve blade and falcata is better than the falchion. But the rogue could also take these better weapons as a half elf. The fighter could also gain a bite attack as a half-orc. Or take an archetype like two-handed fighter for added damage. The fighter could have the duelist gloves. On level 11 he could take additional strength from the abyssal bloodline. Without flank the rogue goes down to 24.375 + 11.375 = 35.75 while the fighter only goes down to 33.93 + 18.85 = 52.78. Which is over 30% more damage for the fighter when not flanking, and at least in my games, you cannot flank half of the times. fighter
rogue
But still, the rogue would forsake a lot of other useful feats to try become a fighter of the same caliber, while the fighter has plenty feats to spare for things like combat maneuvers, step up, iron will, combat patrol, combat reflexes, improved initative etc.
Now this comparison is biased as you took a race that only favors the rogue(as the fighter already got the proficiency), and do not let the fighter utilize more than two of his six free feats, but lets leave it at that for now, but I still want the fighters weapon training in the calculation. And also you forgot to deduct power attack penalty from the second hit(I assume furious finish should be furious focus), and also you have not added the chance to comfirm the crit into the formula. Fighter:
+ .60(29) + (.3*1*29*0.6) = 22.6 Fighter's DPR: 35.8 + 22.6 = 58.4 Rogue:
+ .45(25+18.5) + .3*1*25*0.45 = 22.95 [b]Rogue's DPR: 43.35 + 22.95 = 66.3/b] So in average the rogue will do eight more damage (12% more damage) in dpr than a fighter under these circumstances, and do you not think a rogue that actually manage to get into a flanking position, exposing himself, should not do even more damage than this? And I am pretty sure a fighter that utilize his feats would lessen this gap even more.
As I said I did the math for level 10 once, where the rogue was on the short end. Level 20 might be a different story, but honestly, why balance after a level, most players will never see, as far as I know, not a single path comes near level 20? And I am not even convinced that a rogue would be at the top even at level 20, but I would see it as a good sign if they were, with full bab that is.
As squishy as the rogue is in combat, he should do more damage than someone wandering around in full plate. So I see no problem if he went ahead of the fighter, I nearly see it as a necessity for the class to be a contender to the other classes mechanically.
I might just be too tired, as I should sleep, but wouldn't it be +1 hit +2 dmg if dual wielding? +3 hit from dex, -2 from dual.
A small problem with this approach is that a rogue would need a few levels before it "starts", the first few levels before your dex bonus kicks in, you would feel very subpar. But I also agree that you cannot give it for free, as that would make a wonderful one or two level dip. In true I would want to give rogues both social rogue talents and combat rogue talents so they actually do not need to spend everything to not fall behind to much, but that would need a major overhaul of the talent system, rather than a quick, easily implemented fix.
A full BAB character with full sneak attack progression is not balanced. Compared to what? I'm pretty sure that an optimized fighter/barbarian/paladin will be on par with a full bab rogues dpr, I even did the math once for level 10 builds, using a rogue and fighter build from the dpr olympis thread, sad part was, the rogue did not win. I hoped that it would win, but it did not. The rogue is the class that needs to go to the most effort to be able to use his damage mechanic, most easily mitigated by enemies. but also he often need to either overextend and put himself in a bad position or be babysit by a caster or other fighter. And he still got a lesser hit die, worse saves, worse class features, and still people think that he can not have full bab. From a design philosophy, I could easily see that the rogue should do the most damage in the game, when he is able to sneak attack. but as it is now, every martial class can out dpr him with ease. And tell me if I am wrong, is there a martial class with worse defenses also?
For a more constructive post, what would hurt giving the rogue full bab, and a second good save? and maybe sneak in a weapon finesse for free somewhere, and a talent that makes them use +dex for damage also? This is for easy house rule patching it, what it would need would be a new concept, and a new core, that is not as easily replaced by the other classes, as of now, there is several archetypes that does the rogues job, better then the rogue does it, without dragging the party down.
I would be a happy ninja if this stood true, but as it is, the ninja is also a sub par choice compared to the rest of the classes. Still better then the rogue, but not nearly enough. The things the ninja got was more in style of quality of life changes than game breaking changes, in the core it is still the broken rogue with less than full bab, d8 hit dice, no spellcasting, only ref as good save, etc.
** spoiler omitted **... Sorry, that was my mistake, I should have thought it through a bit more what you meant, because it was so easy to replace these rogue talent with spells the way I thought you meant. You clearly have a point that these methods would be harder to track, at least in most cases. What do you mean with Chameleon, a race or archetype? It escapes my mind, at least I cannot remember seeing it. Please enlighten me :P
** spoiler omitted **... haha, none of that can be spellcrafted? charm person, glibness, zone of truth, etc.I can actually agree that Rumormonger might be hard to repalce with a spell, but the rest is easily duplicated with spells, perhaps nto easily in all cases, but possible. And to not forget that archaelogists gets rogue talents also on top of a supreme spell list that is everything the party face could dream of.
The wizard is creating his own scrolls at half cost while the rogue is buying them full cost when he can find them. The wizard still comes out ahead.Crafting doesn't effect WBL. You get X gold worth the items, no matter what source they're from. That is assuming you create a new character every level, a character that scribes all his own scrolls, will always be ahead of the same character that buys his scrolls at the grocery store.
How many third level scrolls are you planning to have your 5th level wizard use a day? The rogue should get the benefit of his WBL if you're going to start using up the wizard's. If we now, for some reason would agree on 4+ encounters each of somebody to be unseen, open a door, or get to the top of a 100' cliff. Most days of the characters life span, than a wizard would not be enough, but there is plenty of classes that would still be as good as the rogue on it, and outshine them in every other area, but if you take the general case with a few hindrances each adventure and sometimes a little more, a wizard tailored for replacing a rogue will have spells prepared to fix most situations, and scrolls/wands as backups. and still be less of a liability in combat. Of course this will take from the WBL, but I really hope you are counting with a rogue spending funds also, espically on UMD choices that makes him a threat in combat, otherwise, yeah, then the rogue is just dead-weight without a babysitter.
Sure - the first time each day that you need somebody to be unseen, open a door, or get to the top of a 100' cliff. After that the wizard suddenly becomes a commoner who needs a nap before tackling so great a challenge. But we can't expect to resolve that - I think people have been arguing rogue/wizard utility since it was Thief/Magic-User utility. ;) It is not harder for a wizard to max stealth, disable device, climb etc, as he will have the skill points for it, thought his strength might not be that high, but his dex should not be far behind, and of course they are not class skills, but he still has spells for weighting up that problem. But if you want a real comparison, tell me why anyone would choice a rogue over a bard with either the sandman or archaeologist archetypes, mechanically that is, not thematically.
So, if the Rogue has issues in combat, as Mort says, how could it be fixed? What abilities would it need to be more useful?Roll a Ranger? It worked for my wife. I would recommend taking either the urban ranger archetype, or a bard with either the sandman or archaeologist archetypes, and you can role play as a rogue as good as with the rogue class if not better. The classes is just templates to be used for your creativeness, and if you do not want to drag down your group with a "true" rogue, I really recommend one of these options, and you might not feel worthless.
A level 5 wizard will out rogue a rogue in almost any situation. I concur, a sad but true statement.
The rogue is really weak in combat, it need a dedicated caster to babysit her to be able to come near the dpr other martial classes can put out, or very favorable situations, which are not very likely to occur that often. It is to me a great mystery why the rogue did not get bumped to full bab, even with full bab a rogue would not jump far ahead of the other martial classes under favorable situations, but lets face it. The rogue only got a d8 hit dice, do not start with heavy armor prof, got the worst good save in the game, and the theme of the class does not favor armor, but still the rogue needs to put herself in a bad situation to get close to the other martial classes. A vulnerable class that put herself out like that should do more damage than the other martial classes when she managed to sneak attack, that she does less than an optimized fighter is just a cruel joke. The ninja archetype was a good step for buffing the rogue, but it did not buff the rogue in the right areas, it just made the rogue more fun to play, and a bit easier to get into position, but still when you were there you would be a sitting duck. Of course there is more reliable ways to get off sneak attacks but then you need to have a personal babysitter that could buff the fighter instead of you, or spend many feats, or abuse consumables together with a high UMD skill.
What is a Pathfinder Savant? Learning spells at the highest level a class has for it would nicely fix the problem I see with the class.
It will not work, and you have the summoner class to blame, Summoning monster 7 as a level five spell, calling your own bebelith and bone devils yo your help at level 10? or perhaps a planetar at level 12 with a level 6 greater planar binding? Then you can add early entry of haste, black tentacles, magic jar, dimension door, teleport, greater teleport, maze, dominate monster and much more just from the summoner list. Outside the summoner list nothing more then Overwhelming presence really sticks out. So my greatest tip for balancing the pathfinder savant is to ban spells from the summoner list, as that will screw the game. When the pathfinder savant was released neither the summoner or overwhelming presence existed, so I do not think paizo could have foreseen this oversight. Thought I have no clue what they thought when they gave the summoner spell list all these early entries.
Pierce Reality sounds really cool, would love to know what the intention behind the spell was, or if we will see it in the future.
They have actually corrected an error in one other spellbook, http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9o7m. So my hope is that they can correct some more, but I guess one can dream.
I noticed that it actually is four spells that are missing from this book, would really like an errata or faq update on it.
Anyone? Guess I should just wait for the reprint of ultimate magic, but have not seen a date for that either, and the books has a lot of these missing spells on spellbooks, archetypes etc.
As far as I have searched I have not found any errata for the spellbook Insights of Far-Seeing Taernis, anyone know if paizo has said anything about it? Or if they will ever do? The same with all the missing spells in Ultimate Magic. In this case two spells called comet and pierce reality did not make it to print, but the spell book was overlooked in the editing process. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/magic/spellbooks.html#insi ghts-of-far-seeing-taernis-(level-12-conjurer)
As you got five other people in the group that would love inspire courage, I would advice you to check upon the Evangelist archetype, as I could not see a better addition to that group, tho if you are going a battle build, you might want to take a level fighter to offset that you lose your medium armor prof with that archetype, and in that way even get heavy armor prof for free. The only healing spell that is useful in a clutch lategame is heal, the rest are so action inefficent it is not even fun, and you do not even get heal as spontaneous casting so I woul'nt say you miss out of that much healing swapping out the cure line for some enhancement spells.
For you first question, the ability says "thereafter treats it as if it were on the spell list of his base spellcasting classes;" which states spell list, not known spells. "He does not gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting." That text is on all prestige classes that advances wizard spell levels as far as I know, that that text clearly states that you do not gain new spells if you are a prepared spellcaster. Which makes it really hard to multiclass or take a prestige class with a wizard. Ignore this part if you for some reason have access to all scrolls/spellbooks you would ever want in your campaign, but my guess is that these things are rare, and limited in most campaign especially high level spells.
This is neither a guide, or an ask for help, I just want to open a debate about a class that is nearly never mentioned on the forums. The Pathfinder Savant is a class that has always intrigued me since the first time I laid my eyes on it, being able to pick spells from other spell lists, casting scrolls with your caster level, taking ten on umd, and so much more goodies are provided from it's toolbox. The largest problem I see with the class is that you add the spells to your class list, not you list of known spells. Atleast if you want to be a wizard, which seems to be the vanilla entry for pathfinder savant. As a wizard loses his two spells/level when he multiclasses. A simply solution to this problem is just to pick druid/cleric instead as they get all spells on their spell list, Storm druid or theologian seems to fit the prc most if you want an archetype. The more riskier approach is to just go wizard, and hope to find the right scrolls, with a combination of finding enough spell books to "borrow". Another problem I see is that estoric Magic can be interpreted in two ways when trying to select a spell that is already on your list, that it just do not work, or that it works, but you do not gain the +1 spell level penalty. As I read it you should be able to take a level 2 haste, as a level 2 spell if you got the wizard list. But it seems a bit strong. Esoteric Magic (Ex):
At each class level beyond 1st, the Pathfinder savant chooses a spell from any class’s spell list and thereafter treats it as if it were on the spell list of his base spellcasting classes; if his base class could not normally cast that spell, it is treated as 1 level higher. The spell’s type (arcane or divine) and save DCs function as normal for his base spellcasting class. All other restrictions of his normal spellcasting class apply. This ability does not allow other spellcasters to prepare, cast, or use spell trigger or spell completion items of esoteric spells (such as a sorcerer using a cure light wounds scroll). Also do people think the prc is worth wasting a feat and losing a spellcasting level?, I really think it does.
With that charisma you could play around with the eldritch heritage feat line to increase your defenses. The problem with this approach, is that it is quite feat heavy, three feats, and some dececnt bloodlines might not fit the team. The fey bloodline would give you access to greater invisibility.
Also all of these have a minor ability that I do not think would be used that often, apart from the Pit Touched one, or maybe the fey one if he has mooks with him in the battle. There is also a lot of bloodlines that can provide ac, or different energy resistances if needed.
I have created an encounter for my players that is meant to be very hard to kill. He is a druid shapeshifted into a snorlax looking creature (technically a huge water elemental for the bonus to Con). I have taken toughness, endurance, and diehard so far. What other feats provide good protection if you know you are going to be hit (ac 13). Thank You for your help. I just finished making 4 other baddies and my brain is fried. You always have the three feats that improves the three saves, if they got casters. I wouln't say that endurance/diehard is worth it to be able to do a few more hits after you fall below 0 hp, it will most likely just stand another round, and not even with a full round. You could always stack dodge/improved natural armors to increase the ac to more suitable levels to be able to avoid a few more hits, remember that +1 ac is still 5% more chance to avoid the hit.(If the players has below +13 to hit) also if you are going the ac route, combat expertise could also be worth it. or a level of monk to get your wis to ac while shapeshifted. Another way to go is awesome blow to hinder melee characters from taking fullrounds on you. Otherwise as it is a druid, augmented summoning and natural spell are always good to have, summoning a few meatshields will make the druid harder to kill. Also improved natural attacks slam should greatly increase his damage output. *edit* Ninjaed with the saves =/, but it would greatly help if you could tell us the amount of feats, and around what levels you are playing with.
I have been thinking of trying to puzzle together a druid/monk that goes kung fu panda style with wild shape and different styles from UC, a problem with this build thought is that it is extremly feat starved, so you will need to lay out your character as a puzzle. For the people without UC, there is a feat that allows the use of every feat that has improved unarmed strike as a prereq to be used with natural attacks, this feat also includes so you can flurry with your natural attacks.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/monksAndMonsterFeats&page=1#45 As said there, they count as natural weapons for taking feats, but you still cannot take the improved natural attack feat. Hope I were to any help.
Apart from picking team work feats for you and your animal companion, there is lookout which is amazing for any divination specialized wizard, and his party. Apart from that I feel they are kinda meh. Just remember that you need to boost your animal companions INT to 3 to be able to pick team work feats for it.
Mage armor will often be better early as it has much longer duration, I would also go for grease early, as the bloodline power, or a shortbow/light crossbow/longspear will be nearly as good as magic missile on the first levels, depending on that either the dex or str score is not dumped to much, and a sorc should at least have a decent dex. Also if your paladin will use a shield he should look into two weapon fighting to not fall behind in damage. Also I updated my previous post, if you missed it.
The charm and dominate spell lines. And without going into detail, if the paladin goes for a damage build, with buffs from a bard/cleric/sorc, I can not see the party having trouble doing damage, but if the paladin goes for a more tanky build, there might be a problem. You should also be aware that paladins/clerics with high cha will rip through undeads with channels, even worse if the cleric will focus on controlling them so the other players might feel overshadowed. But you should warn the bard about that there will be a lot of enemies immune mind effects, as that will shutdown most of his character for a large part of the adventure path! And also is the cleric going caster or fighter wannabe? Also I assume the sorc is not focusing in dealing damage.
May I wonder why you ask about this? are you worried it will be too weak/strong for your adventure? It hard to go into details before I understand your question, but overall I feel that bards are one of the more balanced classes.
I just want to point out that Beguiling Gift is on the bard spell list. And I would recommend mirror images over blur as a defensive spell at level 2 if it is for your survival, but as sangalor pointed out, having both cure light wounds and moderate wounds is a bit redundant. The same thing goes for Hideous Laughter and Hold Person. I would take a look on mirror image, invisibility, glitterdust, silence or heroism if you want to replace any of them. Also calm emotions could be a viable choice if you want to keep an enchantment spell at each level, that does not overlap with eachothers, and for classes without full spell progression aoe spells are often in favor as you save dc isn't as high.
tl/dr, I would say go for empower spell/confusion as you seems to lack decent aoe spells. and pick up dimension door/haste on level 9. What metamagic feat you want depends on your characters focus, in this case rays/enhancements, you will have a hard time finding a metamagic that suits both of these types, reach is always handy to have, but, the reach on most rays and enhancements should already be sufficient, the two alternatives I see here, is persistent or empower, they are both worth taking in my opinion, but which one you take, if any, will greatly influence your choice of spells as you gain new ones. Taking empower would "give" you a level 4 empowered scorching ray, and later level 5 empowered lighting bolt, so you would need no new blasting spells for a long time period, but taking persistent can help in succeeding with that important charm, or laughter spell. As selecting spells, if you want to help your party the next time you can pick a level 3 spell, take haste, with two rogues and a ranger, nothing else will be near it in efficiency at this level. But now on to level 4 spells, every spell mentioned by deadmanwalking are worth thinking about(apart from Freedom of Movement, not on the sorcerer spell list if I recall?), I really, really recommend getting dimension door, but not without waiting until you get your second level 4 spell, or taking empower spell/persistent spell, so you have at least one offensive spell in your arsenal at your highest spell level. With your focus on enhancements both confusion and charm monster should be strong contenders, together with enervation, which I would rate as one of the best rays in the game, if not the best. For your character confusion just seems like a better version of black tentacles, as long as you do not face a lot of undeads. if you are searching for a battlefield control spell. Also greater invisibility would be a great boon for your party, not only for your survival, but also for buffing your rogues so they can get of their sneak attacks without any problems.
I like the thematic look and feel of the class, and the things are well written, but I can't not see a few pitfalls in the design that could be easily abused by players if permitted by the dm , by the way is this class designed for you as a player, for another player with you as the dm, or just for the fun of designing a class? Is it your idea that an utility droid can be given an object when created, or does the clockwerk need to spend an additional action to supply the utility droid with an object? The problem here is wands, which can create a wonderful action economy for the clockworker as early as he can afford a couple of wands. And placing Time Stop as a level 6 spell could be dangerous as it opens up easier and cheaper ways for the players to get their hands on it, especially a Pathfinder Savant could get it as a level 7 spell as early as level 14, not to mention scrolls. And also I would want to know what justifies to give the clockworker higher saves and skill points (and still changing the casting attribute from cha to int) then the class it is built around? There is just so many small buffs everywhere that might be hard to notice, thematically I can understand the change to int, but getting more skill points, more proficiencies, better saves, should have an obvious cost for the class, which I do not find.
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