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Magical Items: Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item’s Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + half its caster level.

If I stick your magic sword into the tree it will get a reflex save :D

Stat block indicate that's not the case.

This is one of the reasons why I started to think about Dex to CMD being more independent from Dex to AC.

the below is just there to illustrate my train of thought

If you think about it it makes even sense from a logical point of view. (Attention, I use wording here to describe the "real world" view so immediate has no connection to the immediate action for example)

Lets say you fight someone who is blinded:
Hitting that person (never do that ^^) is a direct attack with an immediate result and is way easier than actually wrestling that person which means the opponent can react as soon as contact is made, less effective (the -2 AC factors into the CMD AND the attacker has +2 to the attack roll), but still more effective than someone without any dexterity at all.
Same goes for tripping, while it's easier to trip someone who cannot see you but is expecting an attack it makes still a difference if that person hat sure footing or not.

Interpreting Dex bonus to AC as purely to AC has the following benefits:

- combat manoeuvres agains completely unsuspecting enemies (flat footed) would be (if Dex >11) easier than enemies which expect an attack but cannot see you, making flat footed more severe in respect to combat manoeuvres

- pinned could be interpreted as losing dex bonus to everything solving the "pinned reflex save is better than grappled reflex save" (at least for everyone with Dex > 14) problem making pinned really more severe than grappling in most cases (but I assume there is a FAQ for that)

- it follows the max Dex to AC spirit of this limitation not being factored into the CMD (disconnecting Dex in CMD and AC somewhat)

- it allows to read the rulebook as it is for these rules :D (aka, the reminders would be special cases and therefore meaningful)

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I am pretty aware that the CRB has limitations but we will see players and GMs exploiting every loophole possible just for fun (and I mean that in fun for the whole group, otherwise it has to be stopped) so Im find it interesting to challenge agreed on knowledge unless completely backed by the rules.

polymorph rules apply only to spells

In this case wild shape explicitly states it functions like beast shape and then lists exception so there is at least a connection

Simple weapon proficiency

Thats a good one, there the "normal" part gives a good hint but yes, totally see that

As I said, I see the limitations ;)

Okok, I yield.

Ho does one argue against "the devs where lazy and did not care what they where writing"

just one question: following this max Dex to AC due to armor is also applying to CMD, right?

As for:

I really wish people would stop treating the CRB as a legal document.

Well, it's the rules of the World we play in and it is all we have (that and all the expansion books, forum threads and house rules :D ).

To be completely clear here: this discussion is not stopping any adventure it's just out of interest.

There is no difference between "dexterity bonus" and "dexterity bonus to AC"!

Cool, ok calm down. As GM I like that. Worse weapon finesse when blind, worse reflex safe, no combat expertise, no total defense, no fighting defensively.

Also: Hail Asmodeus

Sorry for the double post

So if you lose your Dex Mod to AC, and therefore lose your Dodge Bonus to AC, why does the Dodge Bonus to AC get removed from CMD while the Dex Mod bonus to CMD remains? Seems a little illogical to me.

As said earlier I debate also that you lose your dodge bonus when you lose your Dex bonus to AC.

The reason is:

Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses

By my interpretation this does not mean you lose your dodge bonus when you only lose your Dex bonus to AC

I think this because there is a specific rule for the Dodge Feat

Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to your AC. A condition that makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC also makes you lose the benefits of this feat.

There is no reason to include this sentence if

Also, the reason I bring up the "Does Flat-Footed increase your AC if you have a Negative Dex Mod" argument is because this is essentially the same argument for CMD. Ask your GM: "If I cause a huge-sized dragon with a -1 Dex Mod to become Flat-Footed, does that mean I increase his CMD by 1?" The answer is No, because it represents a condition where any bonuses that the dragon may have had from Dex are negated.

How can this be an argument, the CRB is very clear on this?

A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD) (if any)

Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 15

Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table 1–3 shows the modifier for each score. The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren’t die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty.

so losing the Dex Bonus (to AC or not does not matter) means you can only lose a positive modifier which effectively lets you treat your Dex modifier as 0 (if it has been positive before). The 0 is a simplification here.

Or in other words your Huge creature has no Dex Bonus, thats why CMD says "Dex Modifier".

Sorry for not using a 100% clearer wording before, I was simply tired of writing Dex Bonus 1001 times ;)

"Lose Dex to AC" is a penalty with a non-fixed per person/situation value. That same penalty gets applied to CMD.

This does not align with the definition of penalty and does not explain why Flat Footed has to explicitly mention that "Lose Dex bonus to AC" applies to CMD in case of being flat footed.

" It's pretty largely recognized with every character sheet that I can find since 2014 having a FFCMD section that doesn't include Dex and Dodge.

Correct, because the rules say :

A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD

and since flat-footed is a common condition it makes sense to include it in the character sheet. As pointed out earlier: "lose Dex bonus to AC (if any)" does not mean "flat footed"

lets make it simple:

Why is there a specific rule for flat-footed when according to your reading the general rule is that "lose Dex bonus to AC (if any)" == "lose Dex bonus to CMD (if any)"

You apply any Dodge bonuses you have to AC. And you apply all of those Dodge bonuses to AC to calculate your CMD. If you lose your Dodge bonus to AC, you have no dodge bonus to AC to contribute to calculating your CMD. So any Dodge bonus lost to your AC also causes you to calculate your CMD with no Dodge bonus.

Completely correct, but the discussion is not if you recalculate your CMD for lost dodge bonuses.

The question is: Does losing your Dex bonus to AC mean you lose your Dex modifier which is factored into the CMD.

And as a side Question: does losing your Dex bonus to AC mean you lose ALL dodge bonuses (not only the one from the Dodge feat which explicitly states that you lose the benefits of that feat if you lose your Dex bonus to AC)

CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier + miscellaneous modifiers (circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC)

So if you lose your Dex Mod for any reason, you also lose your Dodge bonus to AC, and you would not be able to add this into calculating your CMD.

Completely agree, if you lose your Dex Mod dodge bonuses are gone and you have to recalculate your CMD taking the lost dodge bonus and the missing Dex modifier into account.

Again, I do not debate that this happens when you lose your Dex Bonus (like in cowering) but my reading is that this does not apply when you lose your Dex bonus to AC.

If it would apply in this case why are there multiple special rules which explicitly address the case where you lose your Dodge bonus to AC and in addition something applies which should be the normal rule in your interpretation.

For instance flat footed which explicitly mentions Dex bonus to CMD and the Dodge Feet which explicitly mentions that you lose the benefits from the Feat (1 Dodge bonus) when you lose Dex to AC.

@Malcolm666
Not the way I see it, penalties are clearly described as penalties in all descriptions ( –2 penalty to Armor Class), in addition the removal of a bonus is not a penalty in my opinion, it means a recalculation (without the called bonus)

So if a Character loses their Dex bonus to AC, they also lose any dodge bonuses to AC.

So in the case of CMD, if you lose your Dex due to Blind, FF'ed, etc., you also lose Dodge.

FF yes, because FF especially states loses Dex bonus (the restriction to AC is not mentioned).

If losing Dex bonus to to AC means you will lose all dodge bonuses why is there a special rule in the Dodge Feat saying that you lose the benefits of this feat specifically when you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC?

Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to your AC. A condition that makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC also makes you lose the benefits of this feat.

but not in for instance Combat Expertise?

CRB wrote:

You apply your character’s Dexterity modifier to:

• Ranged attack rolls, including those for attacks made with bows, crossbows, throwing axes, and many ranged spell attacks like scorching ray or searing light.
• Armor Class (AC), provided that the character can react to the attack.
• Ref lex saving throws, for avoiding fireballs and other attacks that you can escape by moving quickly.
• Acrobatics, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth checks

There is no "modifier to CMB" listed, so you have nothing to add. You can't add a non-existing modifier.

The modifier in all these examples is "Dexterity modifier"

This is the general rule and if would stand alone you would be correct, but in this case it is being expanded by the specific rule:

CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier

There is no rule specifying that "lose Dexterity to AC effects CMB", at least none that I could find

Even further your reading is still correct, CMD uses the Dexterity Modifier, only changes to the Dexterity Modifier (like losing the Dexterity Bonus in cowering) it will factor into the CMD. If there would be a special rule saying "lose your Dexterity Bonus to CMD" it would trump the general rule for its special case.

raw you should lose in cowering and stunned your dex bonus on reflex and skill checks too. if blinded nothing.

True, if you are denied your DEX bonus it should affect skills and saves too.

but if you go by the reason from MrCharisma

It represents your charwcter being unable to react in time

you could apply "loses DEX bonus to AC" to reflex save with the same explanation (to be clear, I do not interpret it in this way ;D)

You should lose your DEX bonus to CMD if you're losing it to AC.

It represents your charwcter being unable to react in time, so this would apply equally to AC and CMD.

Unable to react in time to melee attacks yes, thats why you lose dex to AC, but you are still able to react to combat manoeuvers like grappling or tripping and do so.

Conditions where you won't defend yourself anymore like cowering or helpless affect the whole dex modifier.

Otherwise there would be no reason for the different wording ("Dex modifier" vs "Dex modifier to AC") and in addition to that ruling flat footed as special case in the CMD description.

DM here

the way I read it:

Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Defense (or CMD) that represents its ability to resist combat maneuvers. A creature’s CMD is determined using the following formula:

CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier

The special size modifier for a creature’s Combat Maneuver Defense is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8. Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMD when resisting specific maneuvers. A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature’s AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.

lists explicitly what you gain, in question here:

+ Dexterity modifier

and

Any penalties to a creature’s AC also apply to its CMD

When a creature looses its dexterity bonus there is no question, since there is no Dexterity bonus (+0) it can't be factored into CMD

like in

The character is frozen in fear and can take no actions. A cowering character takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class and loses his Dexterity bonus (if any).

But there is a 2nd wording like in

The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength– and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks.

There it spells explicitly that it looses the dexterity bonus to AC

since CMD says:

10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier

and not: + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier to AC + special size modifier I don't think you are meant to loose your dexterity bonus in CMD

It could be debatable if loosing your dex modifier to AC should count as penalty but in other rules penalties are always called explicitly that - penalties