japatterson's page

That *would* work, but Star System Salutian is an AAW Games product, so the Paizo product discount doesn't apply :(

Ah. Ok well thank you for the response.

Hi. I just bought the Star System Salutian (FULL SET) on Fantasy Grounds. I've synced FG to Paizo and Paizo to FG. I put the PDF in my cart but see no discount. Am I doing something wrong or do I just not understand the discount system somehow? Am I supposed to get the free pdf for buying on FG or not?

Japatterson wrote:

I have no problem with roleplaying, as you've suggested. But saying that a soldier can stand toe to toe with an Int key ability score class or an operative when it comes to skill checks is ridiculous.

Find a skill with a different attribute to concentrate on. Athletics is an obvious choice, but survival and sense motive with a decent wisdom and a skill focus or specialist training should let you do well in a different niche. (assuming you don't have a survivalist operative)

You make a good point. There are other things the Soldier can be good at. And I don't expect to be as good at everything as everyone else. Otherwise there would be no point in classes. But it does feel to me that some classes don't need to pick at what they are good at. They can be good at both combat and skill checks without having to compromise. And I guess that's one of my major problems. @Garretmander says, "They don't need to be unnerfed, they've mostly hit a sweet spot". Maybe I was wrong in using the word nerfed and should instead use the word balanced. Not all Starfinder classes are created equally.

One thing to keep in mind about the complaints of "lackluster" character options: Starfinder is designed from the ground up to run in a tighter range of math than 3.x/PF1. Apart from the operative (which is widely acknowledged as being better than pretty much any other class when it comes to skills*), classes are deliberately designed to stay at around the same effectiveness. Even a "non-specialist" (a class that doesn't automatically gain a bonus via class features) can, with a relatively small level of investment (theme, some advancements, one or two skills, possibly race), get within +5 of most specialists until very high levels.

*- other than some narrow exceptions focusing on one or two skills

jpatterson wrote:

Seems like any class with the Int key ability score + the operative overshadows everyone else when it comes to roleplay and skill checks. Last time I played a soldier in the group we did 70% roleplay and I was really bored. Anything I could do they could do far better.

For a soldier, starting with a 12 (or 13) Int, throwing a couple +2 advancements at 5th, 10th, and/or 15th, and using a couple feats (since you're getting all of those bonus combat feats every even level) for Skill Synergy (to add more class skills) and Skill Focus (to add +3 on skill checks) would help you from being "really bored" vs. the "big, dumb fighter" stereotype with 10 Int, no advancements to Int, and no skill boost feats.

I agree with your point about the math. Maybe comparing Starfinder with other systems isn't really fair. I also agree that you are capable of supplementing the Soldier's Int/skills with feats and bonuses. But then you get into the realm of min/maxing or roleplay. Not all groups utilize the same amount of roleplay vs combat. Do I reduce my Soldier's combat capabilities so that I can compete with the classes that have better access to skills or should I remain the combat juggernaut so that I take the role I was meant for? The Skills route would definately help me to not feel as bored or useless when skill checks are king but it would definately hurt the party in combat situations.

japatterson wrote:

Garretmander wrote:

I mean... witchwarper is the extreme example. Just about every other class can be built to be pretty great. And the wtichwarper won't be that far behind. Other than maybe the mechanic, who tends to be completely overshadowed by the operative.

Seems like any class with the Int key ability score + the operative overshadows everyone else when it comes to roleplay and skill checks. Last time I played a soldier in the group we did 70% roleplay and I was really bored. Anything I could do they could do far better.

Yeah the Witchwarper is the extreme example to be sure, as far as being nerfed but compared to pathfinder and d&d they just all feel lackluster. Anywho. Not trying to start arguments here. Just feels like a lot of the classes need love and less nerf right out of the gates. I like my players to feel like heroes, not regular people. And I do modify the rules and classes a lot to supplement that but it would be nice to not have to.

If you aren't into roleplay, you aren't into roleplay, the other classes being better at skill checks won't fix the problem you ran into with a soldier.

And... no feeling like heroes? Both groups I've run through campaigns could mop the floor with the enemies they faced. I just had a level 10 solarian stand toe to toe with a CR13. Sure, they went to single digit hit points before the enemy fell, but the character was pretty good at being a hero.

The technomancers, soldier, mystic, other solarians, and even the envoy have all had big damn hero moments enabled by their class abilities in combat.

In my experience the classes work perfectly fine (possibly minus the witchwarper) They don't need to be unnerfed, they've mostly hit a sweet spot. With the exception of the witchwarper and operatives skill abilities.

I have no problem with roleplaying, as you've suggested. But saying that a soldier can stand toe to toe with an Int key ability score class or an operative when it comes to skill checks is ridiculous. And if your players are feeling ridiculously over-powered ( as in a lvl 10 mopping the floor with a CR 13 one on one) well I would say that is a problem with the GM not knowing how to regulate his own campaign.

I mean... witchwarper is the extreme example. Just about every other class can be built to be pretty great. And the wtichwarper won't be that far behind. Other than maybe the mechanic, who tends to be completely overshadowed by the operative.

Seems like any class with the Int key ability score + the operative overshadows everyone else when it comes to roleplay and skill checks. Last time I played a soldier in the group we did 70% roleplay and I was really bored. Anything I could do they could do far better.

What is it with the classes in this system. When I look at a class I get an image in my mind of a bunch of devs sitting around a table coming up with really cool ideas. And when they are all done they high five. Then the head dev comes in, slams a gavel down on the table and screams "NERF IT INTO THE GROUND!". Witchwarper is a prime example. I mean.. what? Why?

P.S. Please stop nerfing all the fun into the ground. Thanks.