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Fantastic feedback everyone -- thank you!

I need to absorb all of this info and will attempt to integrate it into the guide I'm trying to write on this.

For the moment, a few insights and comments:

1. Grick, once again, thank you for the detailed answers. I very much like the coin analogy (candy and hearty pats on the back too). I feel that the utility of this analogy does indicate that there is an economy to consider and the coins are quanta of something (time/energy, or?).

2. I'm beginning to understand the problem that intuition can cause here. I realize that a major mistake I've been making is in attempting to map real-world events to these rules. They make much more sense if I instead treat them as the rules of a board game or something similar. So, as in chess, bishops move diagonally on their color, pawns only forward except under certain conditions, etc., etc. While chess is ostensibly a low-res representation of warfare, it would seem to be folly to really try to assign genuine realworld actions to the rules of chess. I understand that most RPG's try to go beyond "mere" boardgame rules but efficiently simulating real-world effects seems to be in conflict with many parts of the ruleset (as evidenced by the hundreds of threads I went through the other day just on discussions about AoO -- wow).

3. Inconsistent results when the rules are applied appear to indicate seams in the ruleset where things don't quite fit well together. Again, AoO seems to be an interesting example. Or a long thread I read through on what it really means to threaten a square. To illustrate, let's quickly consider AoO. Setting intuition aside about a time/energy economy on actions during a melee round, I now understand that according to RAW one can perform a disarm combat maneuver as an AoO but since an AoO is not a "real" melee attack one cannot substitute a move equivalent action for it, such as picking up an item. This creates the strange situation where you can knock a sword from an opponent's hand and then pick it up as part of an AoO (from Disarm "If you successfully disarm your opponent without using a weapon, you may automatically pick up the item dropped") but you can't just pick something up using an AoO. It seems internally inconsistent.

Lots of food for thought. I've been wondering if it is possible to construct a set of rules that can efficiently simulate realworld situations and can also stand the test of intuition. That would make for some interesting RPGing it seems to me. I understand that this is probably what the houserules section is for and I will have a look at that presently. (I do need to spend some time on other things to earn as many of those coins as possible though ;-))

<lots of good feedback>

Thank you everyone for the valuable feedback on this thread and in private mail. Grick, your comments with links to rule references is especially helpful, thanks.

I think I'm trying to do too much in one thread so I will break this up into three big chunks:

1. A new post to the Advice section once I have consolidated the incoming input and feedback into an updated Guide. I need to unconfused myself first ;-)

2. To achieve that last part, a set of questions on how the rules actually work. It seems that the Rules Questions section is the right place for that. I will probably do that after some additional research (a short preamble on this at the end of this thread -- thoughts welcome)

3. Finally, I suspect that there will need to be some amplification to the wording the rules as written (is that what RAW means?) or proposed additions to the rules. I suppose the Homebrew/House Rules section is the right place for that.

On item 2, above. Despite the thorough "How Combat Works" write up, I find myself perplexed ;-) by the action economy (as measured in time, energy, or some surrogate). For example, there seems to be no debate that an AoO allows one to perform a melee attack. Somehow, this attack is deemed different as a melee attack conducted elsewhere in the round. How? Why? The AoO melee attack is at full BAB, full damage, etc. so it is not being powered by less time/energy than the type of melee attack that a character starts their standard action with... if *that* one can be exchanged for something less intense (in terms of time/energy) like a move-equivalent action, it seems like the AoO melee attack should be exchangeable too.

Also, I'm not quite sure if the RAW (I'm trying to say rules as written here) is saying that to perform a Combat Maneuver (say Grapple) means that you exchange all of your attacks in place of this, as opposed to just one melee attack. If it's the former, that seems broken to me. A fighter electing the standard action + 5' step option might be able to perform 3 attacks in that round... another fighter at level 1 could only perform 1 attack under the same pattern. Both could only Grapple once? It doesn't match intuition imhe (in my humble experience)... college wrestlers can grapple more than once per second I assure you.

Judging from the number of posts on topics like this (100's of pages of posts), I suspect that there is some room for interpretation here. But I also suspect that the intent of the system was to develop a mech for combat that was somewhat realistic but not too onerous in it's bookkeeping. I like the distraction rules that underpin AoO but, notwithstanding the reading I'm going to do, I suspect that they are in need of amplification and/or clarification of some sort.

In case I missed it, is there a question hidden in there?

oh, I'm sorry, I'm just getting the hang of this board and thought this was the most appropriate place to post this.

My primary question is have I summarized combat rules sufficiently accurately for this guide to be useful? Of particular focus for this guide is the concept of a time/energy economy for actions. For example, performing move equivalent actions in *exchange* of movement or standard actions... performing a combat maneuver such as dirty trick in exchange of an attack during your initiative, or as an Immediate action in response to an attack of opportunity, and so on.

If there is a better place to post this, would someone who can do so, please move it that location?

Many thanks

Greetings fellow gamers. I hope you find this guide useful and I look forward to your comments on what may be improved on it. For sake of brevity I have not explained the very basics (for example, initiative) nor attempted to comprehensively list all Actions (for example, all Combat Maneuvers). Although perhaps one day this may be expanded to include all of those things if that is deemed useful. Many thanks for your attention.

====================
The popular D20 rulesystem has struck a balance between the complexity of realistic simulation rulesets and the simplicity of abstract systems. This balance between realism and abstraction maximizes playability but sometimes increases ambiguity. While interpretation of the rules are also an enjoyable part of the game, often the attempt to reduce this ambiguity creates the unintended consequence of illogical play through the "rule patches" imposed in the attempt to increase clarity. Many GMs and Players, inexperienced and experienced alike, can be affected by this problem.

Combat is an area rich with opportunity for confusion but by treating the round and action construct as a system of interacting parts, this Guide attempts to reduce the confusion of even the most perplexed GM or Player. Our discussion here is specifically focused on the Pathfinder ruleset by Paizo.

The Basics
A round is 6 seconds long during which a large set of actions can be performed. These actions are organized by type as follows:

1. Standard
2. Move
3. Swift
4. Free

Time and Energy
These Action Types are distinguished primarily by the amount of time each one requires to be performed properly. Naturally, more complex or energy intensive tasks require more effort, the Full Round action being the most time consuming as its title indicates and the appropriately named Free Action, being the least. The time/energy economy of Action Types is a foundational element of this system. It's easiest to describe these in terms of decreasing energy/time expenditure. Again, generally, the more complicated or energy intensive an event is, the more time consuming it is:

1. Standard - the most complex actions. For example, any attack, most combat maneuvers, concentrating to maintain a spell, stabilizing a dying friend with first aid.
2. Move - not as complicated as standard actions but still requiring significant time and effort (relative to a 6 second block of time). Examples include any non-attack Movement such as walking (of course), open/close a door, draw/sheathe a weapon, pick up an object.
3. Swift - these actions consume a very small portion of time/energy but nonetheless are a significant enough of an expenditure to warrant tracking. It might be useful to think about these as occurring over the span of less than a second. Perhaps 300-600 milliseconds. Examples of Swift actions are casting a Quickened Spells or performing certain Feats.
4. Free - these actions consume an even smaller portion of time/energy than Swift Actions; such a small amount that they can essentially be mixed into the round anywhere. Speaking (low energy) or dropping an object (low time) are canonical examples.

These Action Types can have subtypes. Currently, the ruleset only specifies one subtype, Immediate, which is most commonly applied to the Standard type or to the Swift type, allowing that Action to be resolved Immediately instead of during the character's place in the initiative.

Finally, certain action types may be substituted for one another. In particular, a move action can be substituted for a standard action. Although, some choices will inevitably preclude other choices as illustrated below.

Patterns of Action
There are five notable patterns of activity that can occur in a given 6 second block of time:

1. The Full-Round Standard Action Pattern
2. The Standard Action + Move Action Pattern
3. The Double-Move Action Pattern
4. The Full-Round Movement Action Pattern
5. The Attack of Opportunity Action Pattern

Let's discuss each in turn:

The Full Round Standard Action Pattern entirely consumes the available time in a round, allowing the character to perform the most intense Standard Actions but leaving her with only enough capacity to move only a single 5 foot step or something equivalently small (as per the Action Type time/energy economy rules discussed above). Currently, the only variable intensity Standard Actions are melee attacks and powers. The intensity for these Actions increase as the character progresses in level. In the case of the former, this is reflected primarily in the number of attacks that can be performed. In the latter case, it is the complexity of the spell which increases over time. A high level fighter can perform many attacks in the amount of time that a first level fighter can perform only one. A high level wizard can control world shaping energy in the same amount of time that a first level wizard can only hold a door closed magically.

The second pattern, Standard Action + Move Action, shifts some of the energy dedicated to intense Standard Actions (as described above) into Movement, that is locomotion in contrast to an attack. In this pattern, the character may move a distance up to their speed and still perform a Standard Action. Because the character is spending energy to move some distance, they no longer have the energy or time to perform the full complement of Standard Actions as they did in the Full Round Standard Action Pattern.

Given the first and second pattern, one should expect that a Standard Action could be exchanged for a Move Action. This is indeed the case and is the basis for the third pattern, the Double-Move. In this pattern, the energy and time that could be allotted to a Standard Action is instead devoted to Movement. As a result, the character can Move twice in the round, for a total of twice their Speed. Logically, one might also expect that the reverse would be true. Namely, that the Move Action in pattern #2 (Standard Action + Move Action) could be exchanged for a Standard Action. This is indeed the case; that is the Full Round Standard Action Pattern discussed above.

The character may choose instead to apply their energy and time intensively to Movement instead. This pattern, the Full-Round Movement Action Pattern, is similar to the Full Round Standard Action Pattern and similarly consumes the full round but is instead focused on intense Movement Actions. The most common intense Movement Action is called Running, where the character can move at four times their Speed, or more with Feats. Logically, in this circumstance the character should also be able to perform an action equivalent in time/energy expenditure to a 5-foot step since that amount of time/energy remains in the Full Round Standard Action Pattern as well.

The fifth pattern, the Attack of Opportunity pattern, can be the most perplexing activity to understand and is therefore often applied incorrectly in gameplay. But by considering the above principles, in conjunction with an understanding of the conceptual basis for this game mechanic, you too can join (or remain in) the ranks of the unperplexed. At the heart of this pattern is the notion that the character's opponent has given her an Opportunity. Generally, this opportunity is granted due to some distraction imposed by circumstances. To illustrate this along with what we've discussed so far, let's consider two combatants, Evaal and Lara:

Things are not going well for Evaal. He lost initiative and Lara, by this time in the round, has brought Evaal to the brink of death. Evaal wisely chooses to substitute a Melee Attack to Read from a Scroll instead. (They both know it's the Scroll of Unspeakable Horror which will instantly - and horribly - slay (no save) all but the Reader within 666 feet). Unfortunately for Evaal, the distraction inherent in his choice of standard action (reading a scroll) provokes an attack of opportunity. In effect, his distraction grants Lara the opportunity to perform a Standard Action with the Immediate subtype. The vast majority of the time, players choose the Attack Standard Action so this pattern is called Attack of Opportunity but Attacks are Standard Actions and Standard Actions are substitutable. Although unwieldy, the Attack of Opportunity is perhaps better named an Action of Opportunity. In any event, Lara is a wise opponent too. Previously, she noticed (Perception) a mark on Evaal's wrist (Knowledge) that indicated he is protected by a powerful body swapping ward. Had Lara reduced him to unconsciousness by any means Evaal would have had the option to switch bodies with her. Instead of performing a Standard Action Melee Attack she chooses to perform the Standard Action Combat Maneuver, Dirty Trick, to throw sand from the tomb floor into his eyes. Now Blinded, Evaal's cry of frustration (Free Action) echoes into the next round where Lara, who has initiative, substitutes a Melee Attack for another Combat Maneuver, Disarm, plucking the scroll from Evaal's hands (Lara is a martial artist). Lara could use a move equivalent action in place of an attack to pick up a gleaming key at her feet (it dropped unnoticed by Evaal when he unrolled the scroll). She chooses a different path however. Rather than grab the key, or bull rush (Combat Maneuver) Evaal into the nearby 20 foot wide chasm, Lara opts to jump the distance without a running start (Acrobatics). Risky. She fails the DC to cross but makes the DC to grab the ledge on the other side (Reflex) and climbs up. Evaal clears the sand from his eyes but by the next round, impotently watches Lara (she has initiative) tearing down the corridor (Full Round Standard Movement Pattern: Running) and out of sight. Evaal does not think he can make the jump (he's right). "Curse you Lara!! CURSE YOOOOOU!!!" (Evaal Free Action). <distant laughter> (Lara Free Action). The gleaming key lays unnoticed at Evaal's feet, now mostly covered by sand...

Used properly, the D20 rulesystem and its many extensions can be the source of thrilling adventures and epic roleplaying. Used improperly, the ruleset can be a different source of entertainment - but mostly for others.

It is my hope that you have enjoyed reading this Guide and that it offers you more clarity than confusion in your never ending journey to Understanding. Happy Gaming!
===================

Is there a way to make a non-human cleric qualify for Hellknight Armiger Dedication at level 2? The "trained in heavy armor" requirement seems to be holding me back.

At 4th level, it has +10 to hit (assuming 18 Int), and AC 20, and deals 1d4+4 damage. Compared to acid arrow (+10 to hit, 3d8 A +1d6 persistent), it does less damage on the initial cast, but has a good chance of dealing more over time with it's two actions a round. Plus a canny wizard can counter pick the illusion to match the weaknesses of the target. Plus the flanking ability is cool.

Though a question that just came to me, can it use Demoralize or Feint?

How do crits work on turret weapons? The book says that turrets count as being in every weapon arc, and when the weapons take a crit you randomly determine an arc that has weapons in it to be affected.

So does a ship with a front weapon, rear weapon, and turret have 4 arcs that can be critted since the turret is in every arc, or does it only have the front and rear and the turret just shared the crits.

And if an arc is Malfunctioning and the turret fires to a different arc, does the turret still take the penalty?

How do crits on weapons stack? Do I roll a different arc each time? That sounds like the right way to me, but it does make the weapons difficult to wreck.

What exactly is the effect of the Starfinder Insignia boon from Into The Unknown?

The Soldier's Secondary Specialisation is level-8 for all level dependant effects, but Sharpshooter doesn't have any level based effects!

Will we get some guidance on how much secure data goes for for organised play, or will it be left up to the GM?

So the computer section is cool, if a bit obtuse, and I think will work out pretty well. What doesn't help keep it clear is the lack of sample computers! I know, word count, blah blah blah. So let's get some made to help out.

Computerised machine gun turret, tier-2, 2,704 credits, 6 bulk
Tier-2 computer, 250 credits
Squad machine gun, 2,060 credits
Control module, 206 credits
Hardened, 125 credits
Security I, 63 credits
Squad machine gun +2; 1d10 60'
Hack DC 22, Hardness 17, HP 7, Saves +2 (+10 versus energy attacks and effects that target electronics)

Robo-doc, tier-3 , 9,075 credits, 59 Bulk
Tier-3 computer, 1,250 cr
Medlab, 7,000 cr
Control module, 700 cr
Artificial personality, 125 cr
Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Intimidate +6, Medical +7, Sense Motive +6

Drone remote, tier-1, 5,123 cr, L bulk
Tier-1 computer, 50 cr
Spy drone, 4,550 cr
Control module, 455 cr
Range II, 50 cr
Miniaturization, 5 cr
Security I, 13 cr
Hack DC 18, control range 1 mile

Secure datapad, tier-2, 760 cr, L bulk
Tier-2 computer, 250 cr
Security IV, 250 cr
Firewall, 50 cr
Firewall, 50 cr
Firewall, 50 cr
Firewall, 50 cr
Wipe, 10 cr
Miniaturized ×2, 50 cr
Hack DC 25, 27 to access each partition, two failed rolls will wipe, DC 35 to restore data.

Automated cargo lifter, tier-1, 3,845 cr, 35 bulk
Tier-1 computer, 50 cr
Cargo lifter, 3,450 cr
Control module, 345 cr

What is the storage capacity of a computer? I haven't found anything that defines it, and giving hard numbers for this sort of thing will just make you look silly a couple years down the line, but there's this line from Into The Unknown that's throwing me.

So the vehicle selection is pretty light at the moment, but the ones that exist are still valid purchases for SFS characters, right?

Not sure if it's worth it, but sci-fi settings just scream for motorcycles.

So what's the best spell to snag as a hacker operative with Technomantic Dabbler? I was looking at keen senses as pretty helpful, the damage spells didn't really seem worth it.

•

•

Starting October 6th!

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Starting October 6! Let's go to Akiton!

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Does the Chronicle for this boon count as the normal GM rewards or is it in addition to them? For instance, if I run The Commencement a second (or twenty-second) time, do I get a Chronicle for the character with Theoretical Historian and a Chronicle for another character in range?

Also, if the scenario isn't repeatable, I'd still need to use a nova or some other means to get a valid replay, correct? Can I run the same repeatable scenario multiple times for this boon?

As the title says, I think this would be pretty cool. Androids already have a sense of the Cycle, in a way, with their Renewal, so having one study the path would be neat.

Statwise, there's an issue. -2 Cha isn't great, though it's easily bought off and mostly gives Resolve. I was looking at:
14 Str
12 Dex
10 Con
12 Int
10 Wis
14 Cha
Plus 1 point from theme somewhere. That gives me 11 HP and 7 Stamina, and 2 Resolve at level 1.

Thoughts? (That aren't "take a level in blitz")

Will the boon be available to download by August 25th for the online Game Day?

Let's get the SFS info and sort out the pregens! Mystic has been claimed by cartmanbeck, but everything else looks up for grabs.

Dot

SFS #s and names please.

Dot in when you get the chance.

Let's start getting SFS #s and character names!

Dot here.

Do I still need Greater Whip Mastery to grapple at range with a noose, or does Hangman's Noose only allow me to grapple adjacent foes?

If the target still needs to be adjacent, is there a faster way to pull them towards me than using Net Maneuvering?

Are the races from First Contact going to be sanctioned for SFS (either immediately or later)?

Mostly just the Contemplatives. I really want to play a floating brain soldier. Just imagine it! A brain, in a helmet, with a pistol floating near it, telekinetically tossing grenades!

So from Heroes of the Streets, the Fashionable Accessories clothing item:
These accessories allow a courtier’s, entertainer’s, or noble’s outfit to match the height of style in a particular city for 2d4 months. You gain a +2 circumstance bonus on Diplomacy checks to make requests of denizens of that city while wearing the accessories and an appropriate outfit. The bonus also applies on Bluff and Disguise checks to convince others that you hail from that city.

How are these supposed to work in PFS play? Obviously you'd pick a city when you bought them, but how would the time limit work? Would I just need to buy another set every scenario?

I checked additional resources and campaign clarifications, but there wasn't anything there except stating that they are legal for use.

The FAQ states that PC SLA's from race/type are considered arcane unless the spell it emulates is not on the wizard spell list, and SLA's from a class are the same as whatever spells the class normally casts.

My paladin has the trait Chosen of Iomedae, which grants light as an SLA. Should that be considered an arcane spell or a divine spell? It isn't granted by my race, as any follower of Iomedae can take the trait, and it isn't from the paladin class. As it is a spell that can be divine, and is gained by a faith trait, I think it should be divine, but I don't know if there is any definite ruling on that.

(Basically I want to use the Chosen of Iomedae/Divine Warrior combo for +1 to damage rolls for 20 min/level, but I want to double check that it does work as it seems. If the light SLA is divine, then casting it on a sword counts a divine spell that affects a weapon, triggering Divine Warrior. If not, I still have a handy flashlight and free masterwork weapon, so I'm not too upset.)

Starfinder Society at PbP Gameday 6! We'll be starting the first half, August 25.

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Pathfinders in spaaaace! We'll begin the first half of PbP Gameday 6, August 25.

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This is the 5-part quest for Starfinder! We'll be starting the first part of PbP Gameday 6, August 25.

SIGN UP HERE
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Haha, had the previous thread in the wrong section. Freaking genius.

So name, character, #, faction, day job please.

Dot here.

The messenger from the Sincomakti School sets a letter from Dr. Quolorum on the table and unrolls a map of Ustalav. "The Hungry Mountains have always had more than their share of strange events and hauntings, but Doctor Quolorum has recently become aware of some different-seeming events, apparently connected with a noblewoman, Lady Illirigarde. The Doctor has some places he'd like you to investigate to learn more of these events."

Hello and welcome. Once everyone has checked in we'll get underway.

So I was looking over the options from Healer's Handbook, and I saw the alternate divine bonds for paladins. Checking the additional resources, I see that Agathion and Archon are legal, but Angelic is not. Why? Is it just that much better than casting communal protection from evil?

For We Be Goblins, are the dares limited to only one PC attempting the dare, or can multiple players try? Also, if a dare's reward is not gained, is it crossed off the chronicle sheet?

Is it legal in PFS play to add the Consecrated Weapon option from Adventurers' Armory at a later date? I found this previous thread, which didn't have any definite answer to the question.

So I was looking at doing a Kitsune Trickster build and wanted to use the Unchained rules for the Dex to damage and skill unlocks, but I noticed that some of the Rogue Talents such as Obfuscate Story and Honeyed Words aren't listed as compatible with the Unchained Rogue.

So what do you guys think? Take the Finesse Training and Skill Unlocks and forget about the Talents, or go for the Talents and forget about the Unchained rules?

Goblin pregens here

Place for OoC chat and whatnot.

Dot in here.

Dot in here.

Looking for 4 players to go nutty as goblins! Embrace the chaos and enjoy the carnage as the Licktoad Tribe learn of fireworks and set out to get more of them.

Sign up here, and include your preferred pregen if you have one. Start date will be Monday the 15th.

So one of my PFS characters is a chaokineticist who started with Negative Blast because I liked the touch attack. While going through The Confirmation I realised something I had overlooked. I can't hurt undead! And I don't get another blast that can hurt undead until level 7!

How completely screwed am I? And is there a trick that will help until I get Expanded Element at level 7? Do I just run around punching undead with my cestus and suck up the drop in damage?

So this seems like it could be an interesting chain. First off is Meditation Master:

The next feat is Combat Meditation:

Hopefully the last feat makes up for the tax. Slow Time:

At level 7, which is the earliest it's available, our Flurry will be +7/+7/+2 before ability mods and other bonuses. In four rounds we'd get twelve attacks, eight of which are at full BAB. With Slow Time, we skip our attack for one round and get three hasted attacks instead, along with the other benefits of haste. So in those four rounds we'd get the same twelve attacks, but nine are at full BAB.

At 11th level, we have a Flurry BAB of +11/+11/+11/+6/+1. So without the feat we'd get thirty attacks in six rounds, eighteen at full BAB, six at BAB -5, and six at BAB -10. Using Slow Time, we'd skip one round of attacks and get the same thirty attacks, but now twenty-four are at full BAB, five at -5, and five at -10.

Biggest issue I can see is the fight ending before the full haste effect wears off. Going off the rule of thumb that fights end in 3 rounds, just full attacking at level 7 nets nine attacks, as opposed to the eight from using Slow Time.

Thoughts?

For reasons that I'm sure many of you will already know, I'm trying to figure out how to get a bear companion for an Unchained Barbarian. It's not a must-have, but it would be cool to have as a pet.

Animal Ally doesn't seem to work, unless there's a later feat that allows bears?

I'm not sure Mad Dog is allowed for Unchained Barbarians, and I don't really want to trade Rage levels for it.

I could multiclass with Hunter I suppose…

Anything else?

So I was looking at the historical Varangian Guard as my inspiration for my PFS barbarian, and need to come up with a dane axe to use. Would just using a greataxe fit best, or is there an obscure, PFS-legal two-handed axe that fits better?

In combat, do you reveal the enemy's AC to the players? I think it could help streamline combat posts, and the players are going to get an idea of it anyways once the dice start rolling.

Is Greater Elemental Whispers a legal choice for a Chaokineticist in PFS? If so, what variety of wysp does it give?

Has anyone ever fallen in the pit in the Wisp's basement? Has anyone ever tried the Disable Device check? Or even bothered just walking slowly across it?

I like the idea, and the weight check is cool (not really something I'd expect), but it's a 10' wide gap encountered when there's no time pressure, since the fight takes place in the next room and there isn't a big need to move from there. Why bother moving at ¼ speed when you can just take 10 and jump it? Why bother with a DC 20 Disable Device (seriously, what's up with level 1 scenarios and absurd lock and trap DCs?), when again, as long as you haven't dumped Str you can jump it with no chance of failing?

It's neat set dressing, and gives the PCs something to heckle Heryn about with her lax workplace safety, but why bother making it an actual trap?