frozenwastes's page

At the very least, watermarks are likely an expected feature for those selling PDFs on a consignment basis. Small PDF publishers using consignment sales on paizo.com may decline to do so if the watermarks were unavailable. And they have the option of not using them. So they definitely have value in terms of partnering with other publishers on a consignment basis.

Honestly, I don't even notice the watermark anymore. The concept that it's intrusive to the point that it completely ruins the PDF viewing experience is so entirely alien to me that I can't imagine it would dissuade anyone with legitimate use in mind.

The only example I have so far is the Pathfinder Society organized play guide. And they jump out like crazy to me. I've also purchased a PDF or two from RPGnow afew years back (or maybe it was Wargames Vault, I don't remember) and their watermarks were even worse than Paizo's (the one I got was red and really stood out).

One thing I won't accept though, is your implication that someone only would want a watermark free file because they are planning to not use the file legitimately. Anyone with that goal in mind can already do so with stuff from the torrents. I just find it sad that the pirates get a better product than the legitimate purchasers.

EDIT: Skeld, you're right about the distinction between mp3 DRM and PDF security settings. Good point there.

I'm pretty sure at this point, Paizo knows everything they need to about the PDF market (probably hard to find someone with more expertise, actually).

I know Paizo has heard me in terms of my dislike of visible watermarks and any control over what the end user can do with the files. Carrying on with this close relationship with the fans is probably the best thing they can do for most aspects of their business and it's cool to see it being done.

Thanks for the discussion everyone.

Paizo's approach is certainly good. But I guess I want great. Getting rid of the watermark, twice on each page, so it doesn't look bad to me on the screen is both a hassle I don't want and something Paizo doesn't want me to do with the files.

I'm actually not sure how much of a difference it would make if they totally dropped all security and watermarking from their files. While I know it wouldn't change dedicated piracy one bit (as it's already likely at a rate of 100% of products pirated), but would it really get any more PDF sales? Maybe a few. But enough to counteract theoretical lost sales through casual sharing among friends?

I know dropping all controls on the files really helped mp3 sellers get sales, but I'm not sure how big the RPG buying population is that isn't fine with watermarks and any security lockdowns in the same way I am. Figuring out if there is any change in sales numbers as a result of removing the last vestiges of DRM and watermarks from the PDFs would also be really, really hard to do.

But when you consider the former leader in RPG sales, who won't even sell PDFs at all, Paizo is doing it right.

Many, many players would rather have their character die than have the GM save them by fudging die rolls or hand waving. Yes, the GM using a screen can largely hide the practice, but if they knew, they'd definitely feel a reduction in the tension and challenge of combat.

For GMs who insist on fudging to save characters, start rolling your dice out in the open and then try to retroactively fudge to save the character and see what your players really think.

Most people have a general sense of fairness and would rather lose their character or negotiate some sort of horrible consequence then be saved by the GM setting aside the rules to protect their character.

The fact that most GMs who will fudge dice to keep characters alive never let their players know they are doing this means that they never get to truly find out what the players think about the situation. And the ones that stop attacking downed foes might be able to convince the players of the plausibility of the attacker moving on to someone else in some circumstances, but when it starts happening in all circumstances, the players are going to realize their characters have protagonist protection and are invincible.

Most of these discussions are GMs debating about what they do, without ever having an honest discussion with the players. Try asking what your players think about the idea that if the dice go horribly against the player's that you'll change the results in their favour and that if one of them becomes unconscious or helpless, they will never, ever be attacked until their back in the action.

I know, I know, talking to the players to find out what kind of game they want? What madness. :D

Just got an email from Gary that my last post was a bit too detailed when talking about how easy to get around PDF security.

In that email, Gary also mentioned that they don't consider the watermark related restrictions on the PDF to be "DRM" because that term is usually used to make specific PDF related technologies (an example of which would be the DRM used by Adobe Digital Editions for eReaders). These forms of DRM usually deal with the reproduction of the actual file (as in what device you can put it on).

I consider using the security settings in a PDF file to restrict a PDF to be DRM because it manages what people can do with the eBook. It's a Digital technology to ensure what Rights the customer has when it comes to the file are Managed. You can claim it doesn't count as DRM because it doesn't phone home to a serve, but in the end, it does still digitally manage rights.

In order to maintain the watermark system, you are managing what people can and can't do with the PDFs they get from you (extract pages, for example). That's DRM, even if it's not making use of a DRM product like Adobe Digital Editions DRM and instead relying on a forum of DRM that is already part of the PDF specification.

In the end, DRM of any kind really only impacts the legitimate purchaser. I haven't bought a PDF from Paizo because I have zero tolerance for DRM. I also have issues with the watermarks because they are ugly.

So it's printed copy from the local store combined with the PRD for digital usage. Every time I've contemplated a subscription, the DRM/watermark issue has stopped me from signing up.

I understand why you feel the need to do so (discourage casual piracy and unauthorized fan redistribution) and respect Paizo's decision one way or the other, but just as I won't use a music store that puts limitations on digital files, I won't use a PDF store that does the same.

I also understand that I am likely in the minority on this position when it comes to Paizo's ebooks and that the policy likely will not change. I will remain a happy customer of the print works as they are excellent products. I would not buy a print copy if it had my name printed on the bottom of every page. So I won't get a digital one that has that for the same aesthetic reasons.

We probably shouldn't get into a leghtly discussion about the matter. So I only have one thing to say:

It's awesome that the PRD is up for free on Paizo's site and as a result of seeing some of the cool stuff for free, I've bought quite a few books at my local store.

Paizo's commitment to open gaming and compatibility licensing shows that there is a better way than the litigation happy approach most content producers seem to think is required.

Still looking for a group to join and players to meet. Send me a PM or email please if you are interested. Thx

I sent you an email. Let me know if you don't get it.

I don't see anything very nihilistic about the rejection of the gods as objects of worship in Golarion. The only source of meaning a golarion non-worshipper would negate would be religious practice. And then they may replace that with a different source of meaning.

As for real world definitions, atheism is indeed a non-belief: specifically the lack of acceptance of a theistic assertion. I couldn't quite tell if you were talking about Golarian atheism or the actual word in your first paragraph.

As atheism is the rejection of the positive claim of theism, it has no place in a fantasy world like Golarion.

Agnosticism, similarly, doesn't really belong too much as there's not much room for going "who knows what's out there?" unless your speculating on a greater reality behind or before the gods.

Calling a character in a fictional world that knows about the existence of deities an "atheist" just makes no sense.

While atheism and agnosticism are mentioned in the Inner Sea World guide, at the very least, they immediately have the explanation of how those concepts differ from our understandings of them. So their appearance and misuse is not totally disappointing.

What is disappointing is the lack of clarification in the Great Beyond book.

"Beyond and surrounding the courts lies a vast and seemingly endless expanse of graves, crypts, and funerary monuments in the styles of nearly every race and culture across the mortal sphere, representing the ultimate destination of those souls whose very nature denied and corrupted itself: atheists." (p33)

Ugh. At least it goes on to talk more about them being quarantined rather than punished, but it's still totally the wrong word as they do not reject the claims that deities exist.

When it comes down to it though, Pharasma's imprisonment of some in the boneyard is simply a matter of might making right. Whatever Pharasma did/is capable of, is what lets her determine the fate of souls (who don't get fiend snatched on their way to her). As not all powerful, nor all knowing, goddess, she'll make the decisions that she will.

PS. Not an atheist myself.

I would include knowledge (religion) and knowledge (local) checks. After all, no matter how secret a secret is, the more people know, the more its going to be talked about, and someone will slip up.

I love this idea you've got going. How quickly do you want them to know? Will their revelation be the climax (p.s. for those who don't know, climax is NOT the end, its the high point)? Or do you want to leave them in the dark til the end to ramp up the "omg factor" they will experience when they realize what they've been dealing with?

Well, I ran the session and they pretty much figured it out just from the symbolism. The real drama came during the escape. They had to decide whether or not they were going to go back to another city and report to a member of the secret society who they were potentially working for or just make a run for it.

I'm trying to make the game more protagonist focused. Where what they choose is what we do. So I've been bombarding them with hints of villiany from a variety of sources.

The Asmodean secret society's main role is to demonstrate that there are no good guys that can just latch onto. They were heading towards working for the organization and the people in the cities the society controls, but now they won't. Now it's just them.

Golarian has a bit of the grimdark going on and I needed to bring that out by demonstrating that there's no one "good" but them and that working with these not good people might be necessary for their goals.

So now the question is what does the society do now that they know someone has seen their secret chambers and knows their secret. They know who it is as they chose to run and escape with the proof they found. Does the cult close ranks, or do the PCs become an opportunity for a power play within the organization? Two high ranking members of the organization know it was them who was in those vaults. Do they tell their higher ups? Do they consult and collude?

In my current game I have a arcane fraternal organization that has worked its way into the upper echelons of political power in all the major cities of the rather obscure area that the campaign takes place in (on the edge of the Dreamlands on the world proper).

That the organization serves Asmodeus. They obviously don't advertise it. They talk about the greatness of human reason, enlightenment, the banishment of superstition and living in fear of supernatural beings. They run schools of magic, collect lore and generally do what they can to educate those they see as worthy. But they have other goals.

They've largely been successful in these goals. They started introducing the idea in seminaries and monasteries that it's not appropriate to actually say the names of the gods. They're holy names after all. So over the last few centuries, they've been doing their best to strip away the personal identity of the gods. And largely people now just call them "the gods of light" or "the dark gods" for the bad ones. They also work hard to get dirt on priests and monks and to have their men placed in positions within various temples and shrines and to cut short the influence of any itinerant preachers or lay revivalists who might call worship back to the gods as individual and personal beings. They've also been doing their best to make anyone who knew the rites to appoint true clerics and true paladins disappear.

The PCs are just about to loot the vaults of one of their strongholds. In them is a secret room that has the various ceremonial and pledge equipment that they only use for the more initiated members.

This particular stronghold is a minor one. It's master doesn't have the power to summon devils. He's probably not even all that capable. The only reason there's a stronghold in the town is that the town used to be a major one but has declined over the years and the stronghold is there pretty much out of tradition.

So what clues should the group find among the treasures? I was thinking of an upside down triangle symbol made up of 9 lines that gradually getting smaller. And perhaps a plaque inscribed with the Oath of Loyalty. And perhaps another with the Oath of the Inner Circle. The Oath of the Inner Circle would be an another language (Chelaxian?) which will be deciphered easily enough, I'm sure.

Should I just go all out and have really obvious Asmodean stuff here? A big obvious Asmodean star on tapestries? Should the Oath of the Inner Circle basically just say that they're interested in destroying the faith of the people in favor of "reason" and that their inner circle is dedicated to taking the position of herding the human cattle who can't make the right decisions for themselves or should it out and out praise Asmodeus and pledge their loyalty and souls to him? My gut says just to layer on enough clues so they can figure it out without too much trouble without being blatant.

One of the characters is actually up for membership in the organization and it would be interesting with putting them in the position of whether or not to join them knowing full well that they are nefarious Asmodeans who seek to dominate the area. If he joins, is he going to infiltrate? If he suddenly rejects membership after working to nominated and considered, what message would it send the members of the organization who sponsored them? And then when news of the robbery reaches those same ears, perhaps things will be pieced together.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Fantasy in space certainly works and would qualify as otherworldly play. Some good ideas there.

The realms of dreams can handle this. They are essentially demiplanes that are formed from the stuff of dreams. You could have one be a solid collective dream that is turning into a nightmare.

And if you don't like the "it's not real" feeling that the idea of dreams give, hide the fact. If it becomes real enough for the people of the demiplane to leave it as refugees, the line is blurred and gone.

Having people in Golarion start having nightmares with regularly will also be a nice foreshadowing of something big without the players necessarily realizing the nightmares are causing the catastrophe in that demiplane and instead thinking the catastrophe is causing the nightmares.

Get your hands on chaosiums Dreamlands. It may have been written for another game, but the amount of usable information is pretty impressive (no wonder, since our, aka chaosiums dreamlands and golarions dreamlands are more or less the same)

I can't believe I didn't think of pulling this out of storage. Thanks for reminding me of it.

Frozenwastes, I'm glad I was able to help.

Keep us updated on how the campaign goes. I love the concept!

In my reading of various inspiration material, I've started the practice of grabbing one evocative item.

The White Ship. From Lovecraft's short story of the same name. It's just a strange sailing vessel of white wood and white sails that sails from the south during a full moon. It's captained by a bearded man in a robe. If you walk out to it, you can walk on the moonlight on the water. The White Ship sails on and takes you to a new locale in the dreamlands. The bearded man will give very short pieces of advice, but will go where the person wants, including to everyone's destruction.

Polaris. Also Lovecraft, story of the same name. A foul force from the star attempts to capture/paralyze the person so that their duty on a watch tower fails.

I've also started reading Lord Dunsany. Lots of good stuff in his works.

So here's what I've come up with:

All the character have indeed died. They don't know anything about it. They will just be in the edge of where the Dreamlands, Leng and the First World all come near to one another. In the b'tween places.

Clues:
The characters will have been from slightly different places in the timeline. I can actually be a bit overt with this because the tendency of a typical session is to focus on what's infront of them rather than what's in the past. For example, one character may have lived in Osirion during the rule of Pharoah Ostramenes. That might come up in play some time. In another instance another character might remember from his lessons as a boy that Ostramenes was a pharoah several hundred years ago.

Raise Dead:
If the characters die, perhaps their souls will finally make the journey to Pharasma's Spire. And when Raise Dead is cast, a character find themselves waking up in the darkness. Feeling about, he feels stone right above him. And to the side. The other side is brick work. if he can bust out, he'll find himself in one of the centuries old mausoleums that Ostramenes built. Long sealed and forgotten. Can he get out alive? If he dies, he wakes up back with the rest of the characters. If he lives, he finds himself with them only while he sleeps.

Their patron:

The Crimson King puts his red star to watch over those he has chosen. As a great fey power, his Blood Red Majesty does not approach things in terms of direct cause or effect. He lives with his mind as much in the future and the past as in the present. Always experiencing the results of auguries he casts as he attempts to master fate and prophecy for his own purpose.

But it is the Age of Lost Omens. Who can say what will come of his efforts. Did he mark them with the red star because they are special or do they become special because of his mark?

The PCs will awake near one another in a mushroom grove. They will have equipment with them that they would expect to have for going on a great journey or campaign.

They'll find themselves in this area where Leng, the Dreamlands and First World intersects to be very, very dangerous. They might have encounters with dangerous creatures, talk with deceptive fey or witness the effects of a great terror passing from beyond Leng. I'll try to include tons of colour items here. To establish that this place they are in is not like their homelands. And to put in facts and trivia that they can follow up on. Whichever they pick to investigate will be the important ones. It's a great GMing technique to have what players choose to matter actually matter and it fits well with their proximity to the Dreamlands for their choices to have an impact on reality.

So they'll pick something. Perhaps they'll want to find out more about this Fey King they have heard about. They might get answers that way. Perhaps they'll want to try to stop the thing from beyond Leng from continuing with what it is doing. Perhaps they'll want to find "civilization".

Another thing that they'll find is a reference or two to the things that mattered in their backgrounds. Perhaps even an impossible reference. A note from a wife or an old teacher asking for their help.

Gods and demons loom large in the dreams of many, so there will definitley be some familiar signs of Golarion's gods and magic. Perhaps they will find a stone circle where The Crimson King challenged Lamashtu to send through terrible beasts to test the skill of his Blood Riders in a great hunt.

frozenwastes wrote:

The purpose of any contrived moral quandary isn't to trap or the win, but to learn or demonstrate. The kill an innocent to save many innocents is in the realm of fiction and thus completely plausible as something that might come up in an RPG.

As I commented, your mileage may vary.

Frankly, as neither a DM nor a player do I want my Friday night game to be used to teach lessons.

While I'll agree that it makes excellent fodder for these forum discussions, such discussions in the middle of a great gaming session would not be so excellent - I forsee them bringing the game to a screeching halt.

Just because you explore a theme or have that theme present doesn't mean you're stopping everything for a 1980's GI Joe Public Service Announcement. "And knowing is half the battle!" Incidentally the other half is made up of equal parts blue lasers and red lasers.

Such quandaries are also fertile ground for characterization. An opportunity to *show* rather than tell something about your character through action and choices.

The point is not at all to have the discussion during the game. The point is to have the actual actions and decisions happen, If it stops the game, things have gone wrong.

Everyone needs to be on board though. I once ran a session where the Cleric of Serenrae decided on a murder trial through trial by combat. It totally shocked one player's sense or morality and justice. It made a very powerful statement about the culture/area and their notion of justice. If the one player who couldn't just let it be didn't intentionally try to stop play, it would have been great. It still was good. I thought it made a fairly powerful statement about the injustice of trial by combat and standards of evidence that we humans have held in the past. In that case I overruled the objecting player pretty quickly and got back to the game. Maybe he had some relative wrongly convicted or something and it was too much for him to have someone executed as a result of a system he considered unjust.

The purpose of any contrived moral quandary isn't to trap or the win, but to learn or demonstrate. The kill an innocent to save many innocents is in the realm of fiction and thus completely plausible as something that might come up in an RPG.

If the DM does that and you're not alright with it, then that's an out of game discussion that needs to be had about what's okay and what's not. If everyone's on board, then it can be a powerful opportunity for characterization and making a statement about a particular theme.

Even in this thread the discussion of such a contrived hypothetical has been illuminating and demonstrative. There were massive arguments about what really is the right choice. If everyone is up for such controversial issues can be fertile ground for growing some amazing RPG play.

This is probably a dumb question, but you've looked through The Great Beyond, right?

Absolutely. It's my favorite of the Pathfinder: Chronicles books.

Unfortunately, the planes I am interested in are the ones in the "Other Dimensions" chapter, so while there's some info, it's less than a page per plane.

After reading The Great God Pan, I'm definitely going to steal the "marriage" process. I can definitely see the PC stumbling across a marble pillar that proclaims the witnessing of such a marriage.

Planescape books

I've already started pulling them off my shelf.

Not all the planes will work as I'm primarily interested in the ones that defy our way of perceiving rather than ones that are just interesting. Despite being very fantastical, not all planes would qualify as what I would call "otherworldly." In fact, I'd say many of them are pretty much a cross section of regular experience separated out and amped up like mad.

Finding a unifying element for your players to bond around is a good thing, and helps with party unity in the beginning. Perhaps they were all born when a red star rose in the east and was framed by the moon's shadow,

Thanks, I think this is great advice. I may use your suggestion exactly. Every character might end up having flash-back scenes where they remember how continually throughout their whole life, the red star in the shadow of a crescent moon was present. Their parents or a relative talk about it at their birth. They remember it being in the sky the first time they were in mortal danger. And at the moment when they left where ever they were from to come to the otherworldy planes.

Sooner or later they'll find a mentioning of those born under the red star. Maybe inscribed on a tablet or mentioned off hand by a mystic. Something.

Maybe your party members are unwitting pawns of a greater power. They could have been summoned from their home planes to work together towards some goal of their "benefactor". Or maybe each PC has a different "benefactor" with a Geas on them until they complete whatever that goal is. (A little railroady, but could be a fun game if presented the right way).

I wouldn't use a Geas type thing. If I go this route, it'll be because their "benefactor" uses fate to bring them under thrall. If he/she/it caused the sign of the red star to shine on their lives, it wasn't to bring them to directly command but simply to put things in motion to achieve a certain end or avoid an eventuality known by augury.

OR: What if all of your PCs are dead and they are in the afterlife - only they don't know it. The campaign could revolve around the clues they slowly find to discover their true fate...

I really, really like this idea. I wouldn't necessarily make it *the* afterlife though. It could be that they were supposed to go somewhere else when they died. Like entering the line up of souls at Pharasma's Spire. Certainly not finding themselves adrift in the Realm of Dreams or in a mushroom circle in the First World. But being born under the red star changed their fate.

Clark Ashton Smith, Neil Gaiman's Sandman, Steven R. Donaldson's Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever

I'll add them to my list.

I'm contemplating starting a campaign that is focused around the otherworldly elements in Golarion. The Realm of Dreams, The First World, Leng, the Dark Lands, and perhaps other planes.

Who should the party be? Natives to these realms or people from the prime material who happened upon them? A combination? I'm thinking mostly people from the prime material.

Power level/whatnot is not an issue. I'm adept enough at either scaling monsters and designing encounters that it's a non-issue.

What I'm really looking for is suggestions and thoughts about:

- Adding colour to get the feel of the strange locations right
- What adventure hooks and goals might be appropriate for the group
- How to deal with the lack of mundane people to protect or whatnot.
- How to avoid it being an "escape from X" campaign.

I'd also love to hear about what elements of the otherworldy in Golarion you think are great and worth highlighting or including in play.

I'm going to be revisiting the fiction of Lovecraft and Arhur Machen. Any other suggestions for a reading list?

All it took was one experience with a GM who insisted on Paladins being "lawful stupid" for me to get really lax on them. If you want to run them as written, then they may have to do things to atone or make some really hard choices. My houserule on Paladins is that their code is about fidelity to their god and his/her alignment rather than having to always be lawful good.

My general thoughts on Paladins who's code prevents them from saving the world is that it's not truly good to keep one's own soul unblemished at the expense of everyone else's lives. If a Paladin can do what needs to be done to defeat the horrors that are threatening in the APs, then he should just sign up for the crusade into the world wound and leave the saving of the world from a second darkness to the real heroes.

The darker world that is Golarion is one of it's key features. It's the Age of Lost Omens. Things have gone wrong. The promised golden age is lost with Aroden's death. Goodness and love are not going to be sweeping the land any time soon.

Xoriat was indistinguishable from the Far Realm in 3.5e, as far as I could tell. They even used cut-and-paste text to describe both.

I must have had a good GM then. He really made Xoriat feel as strange a place and concept as any Lovecraftian realm.

I'm checking this out right now.

Thanks!

I'm still not sure what to make of the Shardminds.

Part of them doesn't fit with my desire to have less monstrous and more traditional PC races.

First thing I'd probably do is chuck out the entire mythology of that gate and leave their origin unexplained or explained by sources that contradict one another.

It is confirmed that it does have a Solo Adventure just like the original. From what I understand the Solo Adventure will teach both the general basics of the system as well as create a character right in play as you do the Solo Adventure.

I'm a huge fan of Lovecraft's The Dream Quest Of Unknown Kadath.

I also think Paizo's decision to go direct to the source is far better than WotC's "Far Realm." The Far Realm is kind of a generic abberation source rather than being a place of true Lovecraftian horror. Eberron has a better sort of dimension than the Far Realm (or did they just make Xoriat = Far Realm in their 4e rendition of Eberron?).

frozenwastes wrote:

Utterly fabulous.

I love how you tie in real world mythology, but do it in a way that's not campy or disrespectful. It's not an easy thing to do.

Well, Melek-Taus is pretty dang obscure as far as real world mythology is concerned. ;)

When I first read it I was like "I know I've heard of this before somewhere..." A google search later and I was reminded of it from my previous studies. You did it great justice. Reading about the real world Melek-Taus gave me the sense that I was reading more about the Golarion Melek-Taus.

The controversy facing real world Yadizi would also be a good thing to analogize into Golarion. Yadizi worship a fallen angle who restored himself to glory. The other people around them (Muslims and Christians) consider Melek Taus to be Satan/Lucifer.

So if you had followers of Melek Taus in Golarion, the question because whether or not the centre of their faith is restored and lawful or if they are worshipping a demon.

Utterly fabulous.

I love how you tie in real world mythology, but do it in a way that's not campy or disrespectful. It's not an easy thing to do.

How many people prefer either being a PC or DM in 4e? I prefer to DM in all D&D's except 4e in which I would rather play hands down.

BECM(I) - Play or DM

What is the relationship between the rest of the Empyreal Lords and Sarenrae?

I like the idea of playing a cleric of an Empyreal Lord in LoF. COuld I use him with the Sarenrae feats and whatnot?

A new character in a game I run is a battle cleric of The Empyreal Lords including Sarenrae. From reading everything we could find about them, we basically decided that Sarenrae doesn't rule over the Empyreal Lords, but is likely the most respected (former) member of them-- an examplar of all that is good.

We are definitely allowing any feats related to both Sarenrae, the Empyreal Lords, etc.,. It's generally best to say yes rather than no and possible bad feat combinations can be dealt with on a case by case basis.

Interestingly, this takes us back to nationalism; once direct taxing was in place, and the people were swearing loyalty to the nation instead of their respective lords, the king could afford a standing army (or mercenaries) and didn't need the feudal system for armies anymore.

But direct taxation that went to the nation's coffers and the transition from feudalism to identifying with a national monarch happened in the middle ages. You can definitely have a medieval flavour and still have a post-feudal national monarchy without having too much of a flavour of anachronistically nationalism present.

After looking at the identifying factors that you provided for nationalism, I took a look at the descriptions of the areas in the campaign setting and am begging to think that the nationalist factors are present mostly out of a modern sense of how to present and describe a region.

There are obviously exceptions of course. You have the analogue of the Robespierre years of the French Revolution. Gothic Ustalav is similar in its societal makeup to 18th century Eastern Europe. The Land of the Linnorn Kings is like Norway in the Viking Age (8th to 11th century).

Like many here, I've become a bit of a Golarion junky and am in the process of prioritizing what to buy at the local store.

One thing I'm finding is that I can't quite tell which elements of Paizo's product lines are directly related to Golarion.

I know the Adventure Paths are. As well as the Pathfinder Chronicles line.

What about the other modules?

Argh! My brain!

I think it fell into two traps that I never want Ustalav and other aspects of Golarion to fall into: detailing so much that mysteries and the horrific become mere trivia, and overdoing the "evil."

This is a completely fair synopsis of the negatives of the WW/Arthaus stuff. Everything does get really spelled out.

As for the overdoing the evil I got the sense that if you had everything detailed going on at once, it ceased to be gothic horror and became almost a "horror apocalypse" setting instead.

But, on the up side, falling out of love with the treatment of my favorite campaign setting taught me a lot about what to do and what not to do when it comes to horror RPG settings. So I tend to be pretty delicate when it comes to my pet country.

Actually, I think that this (fair) criticism of the direction Ravenloft went into is the most informative things I've read yet about Ustalav. And that being that the horror elements are dialed back for Ustalav, so that they are actually scary. Sort of an increase the intensity but decrease the frequency sort of thing.

To bring this back to 4th edition specific stuff, it seems that if you want to find an analogue to the "points of light" idea in Ustalav, look to the areas on the frontier of Virlych. Everywhere else in Ustalav should be far more civilized and safe.

Not a fan of the White Wolf interpretaion?

I'm a fan of the Sword & Sorcery product line for Ravenloft. I have every book they published. I thought they nailed it, but I'm not as ancient of a Ravenloft Grognard, having only started my time with D&D with the release of BECM(I) and then going on to 2nd Ed AD&D.

If you come across a copy of any of the White Wolf Ravenloft books (perhaps on eBay or at a used book store or something), I'd recommend them.

Your average city dweller - or even your average village dweller in many regions - just doesn't know what darkness is. Sure, they know that when you take a walk at night, visibility is reduced, and they know a dark chamber. But that's not the real deal.

I grew up in the middle of nowhere in Canada and definitely know what you're talking about. Ice on the power lines on a cloudy night and bam-- total darkness. Better have those candles and a heat source.

Besides, for most people in western civilisation, the idea that there might really be monsters is ridiculous.

Right, but imagine you find out that it's all wrong. Like Harker traveling to Transylvania to discover that monsters are real. Having that ridicule for the idea of real monsters being deeply shattered.

The typical resident of Ustalav, unless (s)he lives in one of the larger settlements, is going to want to avoid the wilderness at night as much as possible.

Three of these creatures have ascended into divinity and actual godhood (which means you don't have a stat block because you can't be killed by mortals). Sarenrae is a god-level empyreal lord, Lamashtu is a god-level demon lord, and Asmodeus is a god-level archdevil.

I thought Asmodeus was one of the original gods of Golarion. Or is the idea that he was involved in creating the contracts between the gods regarding the creation of the world just Asmodean myth?

I'm going to be playing in it. Nearly my entire gaming group is going. The players will finally realize that I run skill challenges in an odd way. I'll have to give them a heads up on that beforehand, so they don't expect it to be like how I run them and think about it that way.

Regardless of the actual danger in any area I suspect this is true. Ustalav is not a busy place - outside the cities - after dark.

A fear of the night is something our electric lights have taught us to forget. Add in even the remote chance that a real werewolf or vampire might be lurking in the dark and who in their right mind would go out after dark?

frozenwastes wrote:

There he encounters a backwards place that appears to be stuck in the past. His rational, modern mind refuses to accept the backwards [sometimes] supernatural place that's right before his eyes.

Yes. Perfect. Though, interestingly, I didn't really put in a direct Transylvania analog. Huh...

To be perfectly honest, there's not a lot of published material for Ustalav yet (well, I've only seen stuff up through the 2nd adventure path, so if there is and I missed it, definitely let me know what product to get). All I've read is the Campaign Setting, the Gazateer and the first two adventure paths. Entire cities are summed up with a paragraph and regions with a few more.

By this, I mean, that none of us can know about Ustalav to a degree that you do at the moment. Even though we want to. :D

And by that, I mean that we will naturally fill in the gaps by inserting things from our own experience with the gothic horror genre. I bet a lot of people will see Transylvania in Ustalav without a direct analogue being present.

Given James Jacob's comments about every type of game you might run with PFRPG (or any rules I guess) has a home in Golarion even if it hasn't been fleshed out yet, I assumed that Ustalav was the Ravenloft analogue much like Numeria is the place to run sci-fantasy, the Great Beyond for Planescape style games, the Cinderlands for desolate Dark Sun style games, Kataphesh for Al Qadim, Low magic high tech fantasy in Alkenstar, Land of the Linnorn Kings for norse epics and so on.

I think the thing that excites me the most about Golarion's cosmology is the potential and the tweaking I can do. It's now possible to plug this plane or that plane in from other sources, and having it logically follow that the plane is there. The Maelstrom makes a wonderful place where any potential plane could exists in the mess that it is.

I love it. Beyond Countless Doorways, Classic Play Book of Planes and several others now have a natural fit in the my version of Golarion.

While I haven't yet found the need to stick other stuff into the cosmology, it will certainly work. I'm a big fan of the City of Brass stuff from Necromancer Games. From what I've read, Golarion was written pretty much the point where it just fits. I think even some of the Adventure Path stuff is written with it specifically in mind.

But what exactly is ustalav like?

I've seen the authors say in various posts that Golarion had a design goal of allowing pretty much any type of campaign to fit somewhere. Ustalav is where people can fit Ravenloft type games. If you go with that direction, you won't be far off.

Undead. Lots of them. It's the easiest feature of Ustalav to bring out and use.

It seems civilized and settled; there are cities and towns aplenty, with only a few things like haunted castles and some messed up stuff around gallowspire. But beyond that, I dont know. Is the place really overrun with vampires?

In comparison with the rest of Golarion, yes. Such that people can't eek out their lives? No.

If you walk down the road, how likely is it that a wraith or zombie will eat your face?

Don't go out of the towns after night fall. It's just not safe. Closer to the larger towns and especially in the Palantinates, things won't be quite as dangerous though.

What are the towns like?

Small, huddled, suspicious and grim.

It seems to be kind of caught in a stagnat time period compared to the rest of avistan.

Yes! Awesome! This is exactly how Ustalav should feel. That's exactly the feel of the old gothic novels of the 19th century.

Take for example, the original Dracula, written by Bram Stoker and published in 1897. It starts with an English solicitor (lawyer) named Harker leaving the modern world of England to travel to Count Dracula's castle in Transylvania. There he encounters a backwards place that appears to be stuck in the past. His rational, modern mind refuses to accept the backwards supernatural place that's right before his eyes.

I'm just having a hard time trying to justify 4th edition's assumed playstyle with the setting I want to use.

Any thoughs?

If you check out the 4th ed DMG, you'll find lots of stuff about playing 4th ed with differing play styles. It'll work fine. Don't worry about "implied" play style.

Ustalav is also the closest thing in Golarion to the implied/default setting of 4th edition. The towns and other civilized places are like points of light in a grim and gothic land.

And well i also think that since Napoleon "invented" or "reinvented" (imho the romans and other antique states invented it) the concept of nationalism,

Remember though, that Napoleon was a massive admirer and student of the classics. As Emperor, he put in place many ideas from Greek and Roman thought.

Those are certainly elements of nationalism, but they fall woefully short of capturing the level of nationalism that exists in Golarion.

I'm not intending to be an ass by asking this, but can you give me an example? I have a decent amount of the Pathfinder Chronicles books as well as some APs, so I can look up sections on different countries if you've got a specific example or even a page number.

Then if you wouldn't mind, let me know what criteria you are using to distinguish modern nationalism from tribalism (or whatever you want to call the more local medieval analogue of nationalism) and how the specific example in Golarion meets or doesn't meet those criteria.

I'm not saying I disagree, but I need to get up to speed in understanding exactly what you're talking about before I chime in.

(I hope this post didn't come across as an adversarial "prove it with a page reference" type post-- cause that's not what I meant)

While Paizo's flagship product is/will be the Pathfinder RPG as well as the Adventure paths, Paizo does have products (including the APs) that contain lots of system light information. There is very little rules crunch in the Pathfinder Chronicles line of products.

This encourages their use with systems other than PFRPG or even D&D 3.5. People might use them with any system. Perhaps they'll go with GURPS, or maybe Tri-stat, or BRP (the system Call of Cthulhu uses) or perhaps with one of the indy games like Dogs in the Vineyard. Or perhaps Burning Wheel. Or the system from the World of Darkness. Or 4th edition D&D. Or True20. Or Champions, OD&D/BECMI, or AD&D. Or Spirit of the Century or GUMSHOE. Or any of the other hundreds of systems out there.

Now if someone comes to the forums and posts about the system in question, why would you bother going into a thread in that forum and basically saying "the system you like sucks!"?

All it will do is give people a bad taste in their mouth. They bought or are interested in a Paizo product. They come to paizo.com and you give them a bad taste in their mouth because of the system they are talking about. Are you helping Paizo by doing that?

Just. Don't. Do. It.

Is any silly new name ever going to top the celestial dire badger? I don't think that'll ever happen.

Furthermore, we've more or less "replaced" Demogorgon's role in Golarion anyway with Lamashtu as the boss demon.

Lamashtu is a thousand times more compelling than Demogorgon. Just reading the fiction related to Lamashtu and what she does (such as the stuff from the first AP related to Nualia) gives me far more ideas than any description of Demogorgon or how he operates.

Lamashtu > Demogorgon.

I have the Church of Abbadar as THE banking system in the world (Think real world Templars when they were around). They pave the way for real international economies. I also have it that the Church is the ones that set that values of coinage at exactly a 10: ratio (their lawful/orderly values). The exact purity of the coins I am not too worried about, nor exact sizes (thinking perhaps gold the size of a nickel now, and silver the size of a quarter with varying amounts of alloys needed to keep the proper value- maybe not).

It completely makes sense for the Church of Abadar to be the central bank for most nations and city states in Golarion. The nickle and quarter thing is close to being about right as far as the actual density of gold and silver are concerned. .803 ml for the quarter and .59 ml for the nickle. If the silver ones are pure and there's a 10:1 ratio in value, the nickle sized gold pieces would be 74% gold and the rest copper and silver (an alloy called Billon when used in coins). The end result is a very bright gold coin that looks like pure gold but is much stronger and resistant to wear and tear. It's also and easy alloy to melt down and separate.

Personally I am going to have the gold coin the highest commonly traded coin. Beyond a gold coin, Abbadar letters are credit are the common medium of exchange.

This is how it happened historically. A gold smith would have a vault and issue letters of credit on deposits there. The Church of Abadar is the perfect candidate for this as they are far, far less likely to be crooked fraud artists than bankers of our world. If I had the choice between putting my gold in a temple of Abadar or some private gold smith, I'd choose the temple of Abadar every time.

And remember gold and silver coins are not a batter economy, but rather a commodity money economy- slightly different.

Absolutely. And what makes this so is the approval of gold and silver as a method of payment of taxes. That's the route of any legal tender that's not part of a barter economy.