If tieflings were only included because someone saw them as cool does this mean each additional MM or PHB will be needed because of something they deliberately left out so they could make sure they would sell?
Well hate to burst your bubble, but WoTC has already confirmed that not all of the classic monsters will be in MM1. They will be spread out between MM2, MM3, MM?. THe frost giant is the most cited example of a classic monster we know will not be in MM1. Look at the list of miniatures from the Deserts of desolation series just released. All of the monsters in Deserts of Desolation will be in the new MM1 with the exception of 1 (most people theorize that the "1" will be the fire elemental). There are a bunch of monsters on the list that were not in the original 3rd Monster manual, and for every new guy being included, thats one of the old school classics being bumped to another product.
Sadly, I hate the idea of not getting all the classic dragons and giants in the same book, but from a marketing perspecitive it makes sense. For example, perhaps if you wanted red, green and black dragons you would buy MM1, But if you also wanted blue, white and silver, you'd have to buy MM2 the following year as well.
---the Osquip--
Oh and for your contemplative pleasure, here's the list of "monsters" appearing in teh deserts of Desolation miniature set. its been confirmed that all but 1 will be in the 4th edition MM1, but which one is the "1" is unknown. Oh and I pulled all the Players handbook races out of the list (so no tieflings, humans, dwarves, etc even though there are dwarf minies etc.)
Angel of Vengeance
Animated Statue (Animated Object)
Astral Stalker
Bar-Lgura
Black Woods Dryad
Blade Spider
Boneshard Skeleton (known to be in the MM I)
Copper Dragon
Cyclops (known to be in the MM I)
Demonweb Swarm
Drider
Ettercap Webspinner
Feral Troll
Fire Archon
Flame Snake
Gelatinous Cube
Guardian Mummy
Large Fire Elemental
Macetail Behemoth
Manticore Sniper
Naga
Nightmare
Ogre Brute
Osyluth
Rage Drake
Ravenous Ghoul
Rot Scarab Swarm
Sahuagin
Sahuagin Baron
Shadow Mastiff
Shakar-Kai Assassin
Shrieking Harpy
Sphinx
Spined Devil
Thundertusk Boar
Umber Hulk Delver
Visejaw Crocodile
Warhorse
Werewolf Champion
Yuan-Ti Malison
Yuan-Ti Champion of Zehir
I'm going to pick up the Rules Complendium to round out my 3.5 collection. I really enjoyed the spell compendium and Magic item compendium, and hope the rules compendium is of the same sort of product.
The rest of the products can take a long walk off a short plank. I'm in stasis until 4th edition hits.
With every edition of the game, allthe major gaming worlds get an overhaul as new product is released. I'm not going to dump on the new FR prematurely. For all I know, the new storylines will be awesome and make sense. Personally I was getting kind of sick and tired of the same old stagnant world, with uber powerful good guys around every corner. 4th edition seems like its going to shake the world up a bit. Sure Elminster and Drizzt will still be there, and so will your favorite towns and cities, but now we get to set our games in a brand new political arena, and be there in the action as new allainces are forged and the world reshapes itself into something new and excition.
Or it could all be one horrible pile of steaming Gorgon road apples. It depends on the writers. WE will have to wait and see.
--the Osquip--
P.S. Then again.. I think about what happened to Dragonlance during the "5th age" where Weis was no longer in control....*shudders*....Change for change's sake is never good.
Aye the buzz over at the Enworld boards is that each year they will be releasaing 3 new core books (ie. PHB2 DMG2 and MM2, etc) as well as world specific books, such as forgottean realms and Ebberon.
I actually like the idea of a PHB2, 3, 4 etc instead of the "complete XXX" series. I mean the book would be nice and well rounded, and if its modeled after Players handbook 1, were talking like 8 new classes and races across a wide spectrum of power sources. PHB2 might give us monks and samurai's with Ki abilities, Druids and barbarians with some type of nature tie in, bards, etc. WE could also get gnomes, half orcs and other intresting races. Basically you get a balanced product hitting all the power sources, instead of a book chalked full of one type.
I like this idea instead of getting some thing like "Complete mage" which gives me 1 or 2 decent classes/prestige classes and 15 more really lousy ones all of the same type.
Having a new monster manual every year is pretty standard and I'e always liked that. Gave me something to look forward to each summer, something I knew as a DM I'd enjoy.
Having a DMG2, DMG3, DMG 4 though..well i'm not sold on. In all honesy, as an experienced DM, I really only open the book for calculating XP, looking up magic items, and peeking at a few Pclasses. BUT i guess if your a new DM, all the world building information is a boon. But how many ways can you go abouot telling people how to make thier world? I have a feeling that the DMG X series will be the weakest of the 3 books each year, because they will probably stick to the same formula (IE. some new terrain rules, a new example town or dungeon, some P-classes, and some magic items.) I just don't think It will have enough of a drive from year to year, unless they rework what the purpose of a DMG is. If it becomes the source for prestige classes and magic items each year, then players will buy it too. But marketing a book to 1/6th of thier market base (DM's) most of whom already have enough experience under thier belts to not really need most of the tools in the book seems like product suicide.
Anyhow, we will have to wait and see.
PHB 2, 3, 4, etc ---Thumbs up
MM 2, 3, 4 etc---- Thumbs up
DMG 2, 3, 4 etc----Thumbs down
As I read the various 4th edition excerpts over at WoTC, I seem more and more examples of how this upcomming edition is designed to have combatants be more mobile on the field of battle. Rouges that can dash past the front line, attack, and dodge back behind the warriors, Zombies who's aura keeps you from escaping, the ability for warlocks to teleport thier enemies to hell and back, etc, etc, etc.
Now in 3rd edition, I found that in many encounters the usage of a map and miniatures really slows play down. SO I stopped using it for simple encounters (you know, like 2 guards in a large chamber), and we went back to good old imagination to picture how everything was occuring. Sure we broke it out for large complex battles, but worrying about where im gonan step to avoid AoE's, how I can get somewhere with only 6 squares of movement, and whether or not things were in range for a certain spell or ability really slowed the game down, which im sure your all aware.
So here's the deal, with this new empahsis on movement and controlling the battlefield in the new edition, I get the feeling the battlemat is going to become not only necessary, but intergral to the new edition. A simplification of the movement in combat rules may make the combats run faster, but also heavily resemble the DnD miniatures game. I guess If you sell a miniature line, it only makes good business sence to make your miniatures required for the new edition, But I worry that they will become so ingrained that combat will resort to small DnD miniature skirmishes in between bouts of roleplaying. ((The current adventure format system with the tactical encounter maps screams miniature combat scenario)).
SO what do you think? Would you consider the streamlining of miniature combat and its intergration into the core rules as a bane or boon? Do you think all of these new manuevers will actually speed up the game? Or will all this extra time spent moving figures around a battlemap actually become more of a pain in the ass than its worth? Or would you prefer simplified skirmish encounters to represent combat, and leave time for more Rp and storytelling?
And I wouldn't take the Teifling as the poster child for 4E.
Really? They are on 2 of the 4 known covers for 4th edition (PHB, DMG, MM and "Races and classes"). They are new, compliment a new core class (warlock), and in the developers own words "Once we saw they concept art, they looked soo cool we just had to include them". SOunds like a poster child to me.
Anyhow didn't meant to start a war with the original post. All I meant to point out is that for an article that intended to showcase how the PHB races could easily be worked into a beginning campaign, I found it friggin hysterical that he glossed over the tiefling. Especially since they are brand spanking new as far as the PHB is concerned.
Thats all. Gave me a good laugh, figured it would do the same here.
Its like If I was selling "New and Improved Cracker Jacks", with Bigger and Better prizes! Then when I open the box to show you, I point out all the popcorn and nuts, but toss out the New and improved Prize :P
[[[[[Greetings ladies and Gents, today im going to show you how to build a new town to start your new 4th edtion campaigns in. "As a starting point, I'm going to flip through the races chapter of the Player's Handbook so that, no matter what race a player chooses for his character, there will be some story ideas in his background." Look at all this shiny new content, ooh we can put them here, and here, and here and here. Ok, all these make sense, look how easy they were to intergrate!
Hmmm...Ohhh but not these guys, we can't rationalize why there would be a commuity of them nearby. Sure they are one of the new iconics, but don't worry about them. We don't need them, just toss them over there and hope no one wants to play one.....]]]]]
I don't know, it just doesnt feel right. I understand its a world building article, but to take thier new poster child for 4th edition (judging by the cover art from the PHB and Races + classes) and just toss it aside, because "it doesnt fit" just seems wrong. It SHOULD fit! They designed a whole new racial system and expanded upon thier racial history to give them some culture and background and make them a stand alone CORE race. I was really hoping for some decent reasoning as to why there are populations of fiendish decendants living in the world, but apparently, thier reasoning isn't generic enough to fit into and introductory town!
Doesnt that strike you a little odd? I was laughing my A** off while reading his article. When the poster child doesn't fit the most basic and Iconic starting concept for your new game, you made a design error. I mean the whole design of the friggin town was so no matter what race the players chose, they could have some story background for thier character. THen its Ooops..well we will ignore these guys. huh?
I don't know. I'm more troubled that the new Dungeoncraft is boring and unimaginative. Is this really the best James Wyatt and the new PHB can offer? A farming village next to a chasm with ruins within and an abandoned tower up the road? I'm not expecting China Mieville, but D&D being super-generic doesn't really demonstrate a need for a 4th Edition nor, more importantly, inspire non-players to pick up the hobby.
Yawn.
Gimme more Pathfinder any day.
True, but I'd betcha that for brand spanking new players to the game, thats the kind of town they'd create. Looks like the stuff I used to make back when I was 12 or 13.
That said, it's not very inspiring to older players or experienced players. Like most of the other new Dungeon/Dragon articles i've seen, it looks like thier normal "weekly web enhancements" with a new title. Remember its free right now, Will we get longer, more in depth articles as the magazine progresses? Probably. As a free edition though, desinged to hook us into paid subscriptions;....well they haven't convinced me yet.
And if the bar is Paizo's version of the magazines, they are going to need to work damn hard to reach that bar.
If I was a betting man, I'd put my money on dungeon/dragon becomming the new source of WoTC's weekly web enhancements and not much more. Basically little tidbits of information thier staff writers managed to pump out in thier spare time. Without writers dedicated to the magazine, I don't think they will ever achieve Paizo's quality. *Shrug* we shall wait and see.
Alrighty, I just got done reading James Wyatt's article for dungeon 151 "Entitled Episode 1, its never to early". For those of you who haven't read it, as a primer for 4th edition he describes the process of creating a new starting town, in his case a hamlet called Greenbriar.
Part of his creative process is:
"Besides creating room for adventure, the notion of points of light gives me an excuse to bring a bunch of different races together in what might otherwise be a stereotypical human farming village. As a starting point, I'm going to flip through the races chapter of the Player's Handbook so that, no matter what race a player chooses for his character, there will be some story ideas in his background."
Keep that bold statement in mind as you read his article.
HE then goes through each race listed in thh new PHB and decided how they will fit into his townshio and surrounding area. Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, and Eladrin are specifically mentioned. No mention of Gnomes of Half-elves (though I assume they are implied in a town where elves and humans freely mix).
He then goes on to talk about Tieflings.
"I like the tiefling race presented in the new Player's Handbook, but I don't see them fitting in to Greenbrier. I think I'll tell my players not to make a tiefling right out of the gate -- as the campaign goes on, perhaps they'll have the opportunity to bring in a tiefling to replace a dead character, once they've moved into more cosmopolitan areas."
I don't know about you, but in an artcile for the NEW WoTC Dungeon magazine, previewing 4th edition, it doesn't inspire much confidence in the 4th edition racial history for Tieflings, if one of thier developers cannot easily fit them into his brand spanking new introductory 4th edition town.
Great, so they don't fit well into small towns, or remote regions. WHo knows? WE don't have thier flavor text yet, so we can't really figure out WHY they didnt fit his town, just that they don't and are better suited to large metroplitan areas (presumably a mixing-pot approach).
Ummm isn't the whole selling point of the new edition's setting "points of light in the darkness" in other words, small isolated pockets of civilization isolated in the wilds? Didn't he state right at the beginning of the article, that no matter what race the party chooses they should be able to make them fit? Kind of sucks for his gaming group when they show up to sit at the table with thier new shiny 4th edition books, and James Wyatt says "Ummm sorry you can't play the tiefling. I know they look cool and all, and thats why we put them in, but I couln't figure out how to rationalize them in my town. You'll have to play somethinig else until you leave the area, die, and get to make a new character. Maybee THEN i'll be able to figure out a reason for you to play them".
-----The Osquip----
P.S. Here's the link to the article
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dudc/20071019
Here's the article for those who can't access the WoTC site.
Spoiler:
The announcement has come and gone, the tempest of emotion it brought is beginning to fade, and the excitement is starting to set in. Seven months from now, you and your players will be sitting down with your shiny new Player's Handbooks, taking a look at all the new rules, and trying to figure out what to do next.
You don't have to wait until May to start planning your first 4th Edition campaign. The launch of a new edition is a great time to imagine what new directions you might want to explore, and figure out what new adventures and new worlds might lie before you. Keep playing for now, but it's never too early to have your eye on what you might be playing when May rolls around.
That's what this column is all about. For the next few months, I'll be sharing my thoughts about creating a new campaign for 4th Edition, and I'll actually sketch out my own campaign as I go. I invite you to follow along with me to collect what insights we can find about the job of world-building and campaign design.
Room to Adventure
Imagine a world shrouded in darkness -- vast stretches of wilderness untouched by the civilizing hands of humans and dwarves, dotted with crumbling ruins left by the ancient empire of the tieflings or the last great elf kingdom.
Scattered far and wide amid that darkness, like faint stars in the night sky, are the enclaves of civilization; here and there one finds a great city-state or strong barony, but mostly you encounter frontier towns or close-knit villages of farmers and artisans who cling close together for protection against the dark.
Your players' characters will start in one of those points of light.
This idea of the world as a vast sea of darkness, with only feeble, flickering points of light keeping civilization alive, is a core idea of 4th Edition D&D. It's not intended to turn every campaign into a horror game or something laden with dark angst. Instead, it gives space for adventure.
It's tempting for me to design a campaign setting as a world, or at least a continent, filling in every square mile with swamps and forests and nations divided by borders. And sure, I can look at a map like that and say monsters are in the swamp and elves in the forest, and this nation doesn't get along with that nation. That's the sort of thing I've been doing since I was in middle school, inspired by the World of Greyhawk and early Forgotten Realms products. TSR put out hefty campaign worlds -- just as Wizards of the Coast still does -- and my natural inclination was to develop my worlds in as much rich detail.
The trick is, when you work with such a large scale, all of those details are far away from the PCs.
If I were to drop the PCs down right on one of those borders where two nations are simmering at the edge of all-out war, there'd be room for adventure there. That could be a pretty cool campaign. Maybe a city is right on the border. Maybe its people don't really consider themselves members of either nation, and they resent being fought over, but there are also plenty of immigrants from both nations living within its walls. That could be a lot of fun.
But that only works because I've switched from the big map to a very small spot on it. Once I start running that campaign, the forest with the elves and the swamp with the monsters don't matter, at least not until the campaign grows and expands to include them. In the short term, I'm better off putting time into fleshing out the city on the border and the adventure possibilities there, rather than putting another thought into what lies half a continent away.
When you start with the small view, you're creating space for adventure even on that micro level. It's not just about the monsters that live in the swamp a hundred miles distant, it's about the dangers that threaten you where you live. In 4th Edition, the danger is large and the safe zones are small. Adventure is never far away.
Start Small!
Side Note: Greenbrier is a name that popped into my head maybe a year ago, and I jotted it down. Now I finally have a chance to use it! That's a useful habit to get into: When a cool idea comes to mind, write it down someplace where you'll be able to find it when it matters.
Greenbrier is one of those tiny points of light amid the surrounding darkness, but it's more like a flickering candle than a burning beacon. As the darkness grows, the little village draws people from the surrounding area to its sheltering walls, offering what little promise of safety might come from numbers and the fragile wooden palisades surrounding the center of town.
The starting place of your campaign might be the place the characters grew up. It might be a city that has attracted them from all the surrounding countryside. Or it might be the evil baron's castle where each of them, hailing from across the barony, is locked up in the dungeon at the start of the campaign, throwing them right into the midst of the adventure. Whatever you choose, the key thing is that it provides a common starting location for the characters -- a place they have all gathered, met, and decided to put their lives in each other's hands.
For my campaign, I want the players to have the sense that they've known each other for a long time and have some past connections. For that reason, I'm going with the first option: the place all the characters grew up. I'll call it the village of Greenbrier.
Space for Races
Besides creating room for adventure, the notion of points of light gives me an excuse to bring a bunch of different races together in what might otherwise be a stereotypical human farming village. As a starting point, I'm going to flip through the races chapter of the Player's Handbook so that, no matter what race a player chooses for his character, there will be some story ideas in his background.
The populace is mostly human. The Player's Handbook suggests that the last powerful empire before the fall of the present darkness was a human one, and I have no reason yet to change that. I'll make a lot of settlements human-dominated, though none of them will be human-only. The humans of Greenbrier are mostly farmers, which means that the lands of the village spread far out from the palisades. So some residents of the village don't have the protection of the walls -- those farms are vulnerable to attack. That's useful for providing adventure hooks.
I don't want to stick elves off in some distant forest. Let's say there was such a forest where the elves lived, but some enemy burned the forest down several years ago -- long enough ago to explain any half-elves in town. The elves moved into the smaller, tame forests closer to Greenbrier, and their camps and roving bands are as much a part of the village as the scattered farmsteads. I don't know yet who burned the forest down. I'll come back to that.
Eladrins are a new race in the Player's Handbook. They're akin to the elves, but they more often make their homes in the Feywild. I'm not positive what I want to do with them yet. My placeholder idea is that the forest where the elves lived was a "thin place" where passage between the world and the Feywild was easy, and an eladrin town stood near the elven community. The Feywild is unharmed, but some of the eladrins lived among the elves and have relocated with the elves.
Hmmm... I'm not sure I like that. Maybe the Feywild isn't unharmed. I could say that whatever enemy burned the forest also invaded the Feywild and drove the eladrins out. Or maybe that enemy came from the Feywild, driving the eladrins into the world before them. I'll come back to that when I'm ready to give more thought to the nature of this enemy. Some dwarf merchants and artisans are settled in the village, and others come through in caravans from time to time. Dwarf caravans link Greenbrier to the big city and a few other nearby towns. Caravans on the roads are another easy target for bandits and monsters -- more adventure hooks!
A group of halflings, like the elves, has moved in close to Greenbrier in response to danger -- some threat up the river drove them to move. They live on a raft of small boats lashed together, ready to pick up and float away if danger draws too near.
I like the tiefling race presented in the new Player's Handbook, but I don't see them fitting in to Greenbrier. I think I'll tell my players not to make a tiefling right out of the gate -- as the campaign goes on, perhaps they'll have the opportunity to bring in a tiefling to replace a dead character, once they've moved into more cosmopolitan areas.
Humans, elves, eladrins, dwarves, and halflings make Greenbrier a fine melting pot. But it needs one more ingredient race-wise. What about shifters? They're my favorite race from the Eberron setting, and I want to use them in my game. They're not in the Player's Handbook, but they are in the Monster Manual, so my players could make shifter characters if they want to. I'm going to say that these shifters used to wander the plains where Greenbrier is now, and in the early days of the village there was a lot of conflict between the shifters and the humans with their expanding farms. At this point, some shifters still live in the wild, but they're evil. The ones in the village have been pretty well assimilated.
All I've done so far is to flip through the Races chapter of the Player's Handbook and think about the role I want each race to play in my new campaign. Shifters aren't in there and tieflings are, but I'm using a little creative freedom to put in a race I like and leave one out that's not working for me just now.
That simple start sparked a lot of story ideas, and I'm getting a pretty clear idea of the village in my mind. The plight of the elves emphasizes the danger of the world beyond this little point of light, but I haven't decided yet what force of evil destroyed their home.
Heart of the Village
I don't really need a map of Greenbrier -- the simple idea of a village grown up around a crossroads will do fine for now. A wooden palisade stands around the center of town, offering feeble protection against the encroaching wild.
There's a common house in the middle of town -- it serves as the classic D&D tavern, sure, but it's also where the villagers gather for meetings to handle the sorts of things a town council would handle in a larger settlement.
The temple is the other main gathering place, where people come together to celebrate and mourn the many passages of life. I'll need to give some thought to the temple and the religious life of the village.
Turning to another chapter in the Player's Handbook, I run down the list of gods. I don't get very far before Bahamut's portfolio jumps out at me: He's the god of justice, protection, and honor. These people fear the encroaching darkness, so it seems natural to me that they would pray to Bahamut for protection. I'll say that Bahamut's altar occupies center stage, as it were, in the temple.
That needn't be the end of it, though. In any polytheistic religion, people offer prayers and make sacrifices to different gods for different occasions. As the sun god, Pelor is an important god of agriculture. He'll get a shrine in one wing of the temple. In better days, he was more important than Bahamut in Greenbrier. In fact, there might still be townsfolk who resent the priests of Bahamut for usurping Pelor's place in the center of the temple.
That story has some interesting possibilities -- but I'm not sure where I'm going with it just yet. It might be a seed I plant that doesn't flower until later in the campaign -- maybe much later.
Bahamut is often closely associated with Moradin and Kord -- they say that the three gods share an Astral Dominion, called Mount Celestia. So those gods will also have shrines within the temple. That ought to be enough for now -- four important deities, with some room for stories in the relationships among their most devoted followers.
Drawing the First Circle
From the starting point of the village, I need to fill in a circle around it -- just enough to give me and my players about as much knowledge of the surrounding world as the characters and the other people in town would have. These aren't world travelers -- they know their village, the road that links it to other towns, the river the halflings came down, and the burned forest. And that's all I need to know right now.
So I sketch out a map with Greenbrier at the center. I've said it's a crossroads, so I'll give some thought to what lies down at least three roads.
The big city appears on the map as an arrow pointing north and labeled "to Silverymoon." I've stolen the name from the Forgotten Realms, and later on when the PCs find their way there, I might steal more than just the name. I like Silverymoon as a good example of a city situated in the midst of dangerous wilderness.
The southern branch of the road points "to Tower Watch." That's the next nearest town. Its name (pulled out of the air) suggests that it might have been built in or near an ancient ruin with a prominent tower, either crumbling or still standing, mysterious and unexplored.
Oh, I like that. I think my PCs will explore the tower of Tower Watch before too long.
The halflings live on a river. I don't know yet what lies upriver to the northwest (except whatever made the halflings move) or where the river flows -- presumably there's a big lake or an ocean down that way somewhere, to the southeast. That sparks an image of Lake Town from The Hobbit, which might be another cool thing to steal. So the third branch of the road runs along the river, with an arrow pointing to Lake Town.
The last touch on the map is an ancient road running off to the west, branching away from the river. The bricks laid down to mark its course in centuries past are broken and worn, choked with grass and weeds. It, too, runs off the edge of the map, with an arrow pointing "to Harrows Pass." Why? Because my son came up with that name one day and I really liked it.
And there's my campaign setting.
No, not really. But it's the start of it. It's where my players will have their first experience of 4th Edition -- their first adventures as novice characters just beginning their heroic journeys. And it hints at what lies beyond: Tower Watch, Lake Town, Harrows Pass, the burned forest, Silverymoon.
The only thing it lacks is a dungeon.
Greenbrier Chasm
The frightened little village of Greenbrier needs a dungeon -- it needs space right nearby where player characters can answer the call to become heroes. The darkness encroaches, and heroes must push it back.
So right at the edge of the burned forest (which I should probably name at some point), a chasm named after the village opens up. I imagine Greenbrier Chasm as a deep cleft in the ground, choked with the prickly weeds that gave the village its name when settlers first cleared them away to make room for their farms.
Greenbrier Chasm opened up when the forest burned. I still don't know why, but that means it's a relatively recent arrival on the scene -- the latest evidence that danger and evil are closing in on the little village.
And when Greenbrier Chasm opened up, it revealed a dungeon -- the long-buried ruins of an ancient city or stronghold. By scrambling down through the briers to the bottom of the chasm, characters can gain access to these ruins and search them for treasures. Note for future reference: There might be a deeper point in the chasm that leads into another layer of dungeon, or some event might make the chasm deeper as the campaign progresses.
This will be the dungeon where my PCs gain their first few levels, letting their characters grow and mature into budding heroes.
Did I miss the WoTC announcement that Greyhawk was going to be permanently discontinued? I hope not, since I read the ENWorld 4e boards every day. I do remember reading that Greyhawk will no longer be the official default campaign setting used in the core books. Big, big difference.
Nope, all we know is that it is no longer core, and that the the RPGA's living greyhawk campaign is being discontinued at the end of this year.
It is quite possible that we might see a greyhawk campaign sourcebook, but I'd bet not for a couple of years. They seem to be pushing forgottean realms, and after that Ebberon. Greyhawk might be on the back burner for a long long time.
Or WoTC will just rake it over the coals, and take out the juciest bits to use in thier new generic sourcebooks, and greyhawk will be limited to what us fans (or maybee a 3rd party company) create for it.
I was under the impression that the compatible products were all rules light, or story driven products, like "The Grand Histories of the Realms". I think thats what they mean by compatible; products that can cross the 3rd edition/4th edition boundary intact.
I like KEEP. Its my favorite campaign starter adventure of all time. Every time I get a group of "new" gamers, out comes the keep for the next generation.
That said, its more of an adventure than a town. SO I can't see them converting the KEEP unless they plan on including the adventure in the DMG, which I highly doubt.
THe most well known town across all the editions is probably Homlett. Its been ressurected in a dozen incarnations or more, and its actually a full fledged town with a bit of depth, not just a sidenote on your way to the "dungeon".
Either way, they can take it or leave it. As a long time DM and crafter of my own adventures, I really have no need for a generic town taking up pages of my DMG. I'm not even sure a fully fledged town is necessary for New Players either, as in my experience, new players spend more time hacking through monsters and dungeons than worrying about the name of the local mayor. Give them a tavern, and a detailed bartender/innkeeper and the new players are all set :P
Well I guess they have to fill all the DMG space with something...since magic items have seriously been reduced in number and importance.
Someone mentioned earlier (although I think it was more tongue in cheek) that they could follow this multiple Monster Manual model with the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide and eliminate Complete type books ...
That is actually exactly what I think they are planning. WOTC has already told us to expect PHB and DMG II as well as additional PHB and DMGs every year or so. We also know (or at least strongly suspect) that Gnomes will not be in the Players Handbook - I foresee Gnomes in PHB II.
If you look at the various Complete books, you could argue that about half of each book, more or less, is really good and the remainder is obviously filler. Most of the good info in the average Complete book could easily be devided into PHB stuff (new races, new classes etc) and DMG stuff (Prestige Classes, rules variants etc). So, instead of a bunch of 4E Complete books, which some people would reject, they put out very similar content but in the PHB II and the DMG II, the PHB III and DMG III etc. The public sees these as 'must have' core books instead of optional books. It makes perfect sense (well, to me at least)
Oh, and most Podcasts are worth at least a listen while driving etc. I listen to them while I'm folding laundry ...
You know, at first my gut reaction was "AAARRGGHHH!!! NOOO!!! THOSE BASTARDS!!!".
But then I thought about it a bit. I realize I actually might enjoy having multiple players handbooks, if each followed a standard format. If I got 8 new classes, new spells feats and equipment for those classes, and some new races thrown in, it could be a really good product. Not as specialized as a complete XX book, but then again, I king of like the broad range of appeal. If it replaces the yearly rehash of class centric books, I just might jump on the bandwagon.
Of course there's a big IF, and thats quality. I can see PHB1 being top knotch, with the 4 "core" classes and 4 secondary classes. I can see PHB2 being a hit, with the druid, barbarian, monk, psion, half orc, gnome and such taking the spotlight. But after that? I imagine they will once again be delving into all the wierd exostential races and classes we saw cobbled togethger in the last 2 years of 3.5.
It will be renamed the "Demonomicon of xIGGLEWILVx" due to the fact that another player named Eric Mona already chose IGGLEWILV as his log-in name...:P
I'd have to go back over to Enworld to dig up the link, but there's an thread floating around which suposedly hit the story reasoning behind the change directly on the head. From what I understand there are 2 forgotten realms in the novels, basically 2 parralel dimensions. in 4th edition they are bringing the two parralel dimensions back together, and using it as a platform to explpain any broad sweeping changes they make.
Ie. County so and so is much smaller now because its nonexistant in the parralel world. Etc.
I'm sure all the realmslore fans out there can fill in the details alot better than I can.
It makes perfect sense from a marketing perspective. With a totally online product, they want thier customers to log in as much as possible, which forces them to view whatever's on thier website 9advertisements, product placement, new releases, etc). SO by breaking the adventure into sections, thier entire suscriber base will end up logging in each week to get the next section.
I'll stick to pathfinder, least I can thumb through the entire thing while sitting on my throne :P
Now, flash forward to 2010, the year we make contact, and witness the release of a new campaign one shot for Greyhawk or Dragonlance, where we are introduced to the "Tome Mage," a wizard that doesn't use focus elements but must spend time with his trusty spellbook in order to commit magic rituals to his mind until he uses them, then must have time to consult his book again after using them.
Now, if this happens, then they just significantly altered a long standing setting in order to correspond to the launch books, because they really wanted to do something different.
I don't know if this will happen, but its something that has occurred to me as a potential issue down the road.
Bwahahaha! Can you Imagine that? A year after 4ed launch, we get a builder book, the new "Complete Arcane" with "Tome Mages" who use a traditional Vancian spellcasting system. I think I'd laugh myself silly.
I've always struggled with this. I WANT dwarves to be the best in beer, but how? I don't see them growing barley on the mountaintop; they're all, "Let's find mithril and iron ore," not, "Lets plant flowers for hops." But it's still cool.
Well they have to grow something. I guess it depends on your dwarves. Mine are more akin to Dragonlance hill dwarves. Small settlements on the surface aimed at agriculture, with big underground "mountain strongholds" controlling each dwarven region.
If you have a dwarven society that is almost entirely subterranian, I could see a problem. How DO you feed an entire city that exists underground, away from green growning things? Well I guess you could resort to magic, or the classic "mold anf fungus" diet, but that always seemed trite or boring to me.
--The Osquip--
Oops I think we hijacked this thread. What were we talking about originally? Elves? I hate those pointy eared jerks. Or, I guess I hate all the pointy eared drizzt clones I ran into in the RPGA. Jeez, you think with all the great literature out there, people could come up with more interesting elves to play. With the first published setting in 4th edition being forgotten realms, I guess we can all look forward to an army of Drizzt clones rearing thier ugly heads again. Just for variety, perhaps my next elf will be a slyvan elf warlock/cleric who delights in crushing all the small fuzzy woodland creatures and sacrificing thier life essences to Jubilex to feed his gods ever-present hunger.
Meanwhile, my only legitimate gripe about dwarves is that though they live in mountains and grow no grain, they make the best ale. THAT'S bs.
-W. E. Ray
My dwarves grow barley on high mountain terraces. They brew stout lagers (great for cold brewing) and make whiskey that will curl the hair on a halflings foot (yeah we still use tokien halflings).
--The Osquip--
PS Our dwarven whiskey works just like alchemists fire :) I even had a creative dwarven rogue take a hit from his flask, and spit the concoction through his torch to incinerate a swarm of wasps heading his way!!
4e will be the greatest game ever and anyone who says otherwise is an ignorant, whiny nay-sayer who should just keep playing that 3.5 garbage. Stop cluttering up my precious board with your incessant complaining. Only over-zealous fan boys should be allowed to post.
Well you better hurry up over to Amazon.com and pre-order yourself a copy of the LEATHER BOUND players handbook 4th edition. Its already up.
Just think, all of those, spelling errors, broken rules, under-tested rules, and general lack of quality editing in a first edition of a game will be preserved for you forever in a hansome leather bound volume :)
Personally I'll wait till the second printing..Or the third. Ahh shucks, I'll just wait for 4.5.
Its too long of a term. A flashy name is fine, but having to say "This round I use my golden lotus jujitsu strike" as opposed to "I cleave" is kind of annoying. Dragon's tail sweep could have just as easily been "knockdown" or "Sweep". THese terms are also generic and can describe a number of differnt moves, ala player's taste.
DISCLAIMER: IF you like playing guys with really long attack phrases, by all means do so. My half-orc monk, Feng Soun gets his rocks off with phrases like "Monkey Pounds Coconut" and "Faclon Dives through Willows".
It's alot easier to come up with your own phrases and tack them onto really generic combat moves, than the other way around. Also, on those days I'm jsut not in the mood to roleplay, I could revert back to stunning fist or Improved trip and everyone knew what I was talking about.
--The Osquip--
"Osquip, the other white meat"
P.S. If any of you LG RPGA players out there have sat at a table with Feng over the last 6 years, the grizzled old Mui Thai master has finally retired, so if you ever find yourselves in the Principality of Ulek, stop by his bar in Haverhill and grab a drink on the house.
Hey guys long time lurker, recently decided to shake my head and see what spare change fell out.
Well each day I scrabble over the WoTC website and ENworld, scrounging up each little tidbit of 4th edition dangled in front of our noses. And every day, I die a little more inside. Sure there's stuff I like, things that seem new and innovative (Arcane Foci -> staves/wands/orbs come to mind), but I'd say 8 times out of 10 I sigh and wonder who's running the ship over there.
What Paizo has done with 3rd edition is frankly amazing. Quality products, fantastic creativity, and top quality merchandice, and all at an affordable price. That can't be easy to do, and I tip my hat to you and your team. Now I cross my fingers and wait with baited breath to see what you guys an gals do with 4th edition. Whatever you guys do with the next gen DnD, whether 3.5, 4.0, 3.75, 5.0 or something totally unprecedented, I sure will be the best game available out there.
So here's hoping for the best
--The Osquip--
P.S. If you guys havent heard it, Eric Mona was revcently a guest speaker over on Green Ronin's podcasts. You can find it on the Green Ronin site, its pretty interesting.
"Ever faced one of those life-or-death saving throws? Hours, weeks, or even years of play can hang in the balance. It all comes down to that one roll. There’s drama in that moment, but it’s drama you didn’t create, and you don’t want."
I love that kind of drama. Those dramatic life or death scenes in the game are what me and my group talk about years down the road. What will we say now. "Hey remember that time the DM rolled a die, while I sat there and listened to him kill or spare my character. Yeah that was awesome!"
It seems like this will only increase the number of times the players can say the DM has it in for em. Regardless I like having the fate of my character hang on a die roll...my roll. But that's just me.
Thoughts?
Sadly they had to remove save or die type effects from the new system, probably due to the addition of the static defense scores. Think about it. Do you want a scenario like this?
DM--"Ok the beholer targets you with his disintergration beam"
player--"Oh ok, what do i need to roll to survive?
DM-"Nothing, I'm taking care of the roll"
Player--Umm...Can't I try and jump out of the way or something?"
DM--"Nope, I'll take care of all that. Lets see I rolled a 17, your fortitude defense is a 15, Opps sorry,. looks like you were disintergrated....."
Player "------------"
Personally I'd be rather pissed. Feels lke I have no control over my character at that point.
THough I still think they had to move to the 4th edition saving defenses to try and speed up the game in response to Maneuvers. Since all classes are now getting manuevers ala. book of the 9 swords, If the current saving throw system was kept in place, that would be a ton of saves from round to round. In the new system its alot faster, only one person is rolling dice.
Is it better? That remains to be seen. I think we're losing a bit of fun and flavor in the name of expedience.
--The Osquip---
P.S. Old timer rant below, be forewarned.
*sheds a tear* I still kinda miss rolling other types of dice. Percentiles, d12's and the like. Im a DnD player, I lIKE rolling dice! Now it seems like they are simplyfiying it even more. All i get now is a D20 + Modifier. If they do something crazy and make damage fixed (like in the DnD miniatures game) the only die ill ever need will be a d20. I might as well put one inside one of those Pop-a-matic Bubble and toss all my other beauties away! *cries*
Hmm, if it's one roll for an area attack, then yeah there is difference: it's like a single save roll for the entire party (but they each add their own modifier). Everybody shares in a critical or fumble. If only half the party makes their save, it will always be the half with the appropriate good save instead of usually. Is this necessarily a bad thing?
Yes, it is a bad thing. Its somethng I've been tossing and turning around in my mind for a weeks now now.
1) Players no longer have the "illusion" of saving themselves. its FUN to have the chance to toss that saving throw die and see if you survive or not. It makes it FEEL like your fate is in your hands. yes mathematically vs. single targets the proposed 4.0 system is exactly the same, but why take the die out of the players hand?
--"Oh the dragons breathing again, well Joe Fighter whats your Reflex defense? Still 14? Damn my dragons breath attack roll is +14.. Eww...SOrrry, your gonna be taking full damage again..."
2) Its a hundred times easier to jack up the bonus to ONE ROLL as opposed to increasing the rolls of an entire party. I fear escalation factors here. ALl it takes is a few bad feats or spell modifiers and it will most likely be possible to make a Wizard or creature with a base "Magic attack roll" modifier to be well above the average parties reflex defense for a given level.
--Teflon Billy 4.0--
"Im the Hidden flame staff wielder fire specalist with my wand +6 of fire and fire specilization. Ohhh Loook my base MAB for a fireball is +18...Whats the monsters average save at this level? 12? Fireballs comming online!!"
Well thats how I see it. We all know there are lots of cheese weasels out there, the new edition will be no different.
I'm all for speeding up the game, but not at the cost of removing my percieved sense of control over my characters fate. Yeah YEah, i've heard the argoument "But AC is static! WHy don't you complain about that!" WEll, simple. most physical attacks ARE NOT AOEs.
Well, with all the new Maneuvers being added in in 4th edition, I guess they had to implement this change to static defenses. If its at all like the book of nine swords (WHich they keep quoting as a preview of 4th) every class is gong to have manuevers, many of which are AoE based. Even your fighter will be doing "dance of the wind" or some such nonsense throwing around AoE damage. So in the name of expediency (and not having to roll 200 saving throws every round of combat) I think thats why this new system has replaced player saving throws.
I'm gonna stick with whatever route paizo takes. Kudos Eric, you guys make the best products out there, in adventure quality, artwork and print quality. If you guys go 4th, so will I.
I have enough 3.5 crap to last me 3 lifetimes, but I just don't have the time to create advantures like I used to. Since I'll be relying on published products for adventures, chances are I'll convert to the new edition.....
...Unless of course they fail to make 4th edition available to third party publishers, in which case I'll stick to my 3.5 edition archives.
--*humming quietly to himself*--
"Do you know the Skinsaw men, the Skinsaw men, the Skinsaw men"?
Well i've been debating for a while now wheter to pick up a pathfinder subscription, BUT after seeing the title of the newest pathfinder series module, you hooked me! Just the fact that I can torture my players with that line for few weeks before I run the adventure is well worth the subscription price!
Psychological warfare is the best weapon a DM has :)
