burnout02's page

And I do hope that if slavery is actually removed narratively from the setting, that it’s mostly done by the people that suffer it, or/and the people of the country. That Osirion finally outlaws all form of slavery thanks to the relationship of the Council of Liberated Slaves and the Pharaoh, that the Bellflower Network and its allies has struck so many times successfully against the slaver institutions in Cheliax that the country has no other option but to ban slavery, that a thrall ends up becoming a linnorm king and strongarms the other linnorm kingdoms into outlawing slavery, etc. No “eagle knights swoop in to save the day”, pretty please.

I understand - correct me if I'm wrong - that from Erik's response, it's simply going to be removed from the setting with no explanation.

And I'll admit, it seems really strange that Cheliax, the Empire of Devils, a tyranny in thrall to dread Asmodeus (Who believes that the strong should rightfully govern the weak, who in turn owe their masters unwavering obedience), would abruptly stop practicing slavery.

Paizo aren't even removing slavery from the setting - the open letter was a reaction to them ham-fistedly mentioning slavery 126 times in a 400 page book about a neutral-aligned city that is supposed to be a home base for PCs, and they responded by essentially saying that they will stop emphasizing it so much. They messed up and have admitted that they haven't demonstrated the ability to handle the topic appropriately, and that fixating on it so much was unhealthy, so they won't fixate on it so much in the future. It still exists in Golarion for those of you who absolutely need slaves in a story to get any enjoyment out of the game, and for those who want to do a "free the slaves" story or whatever, it's just the rest of us who don't need it to be mentioned on every 4th page of a setting book won't be subjected to it.

I believe that Paizo is, in fact, removing slavery from the setting in its entirety, unless I've badly misread Erik's response.

To quote (from the blog):

Going forward, we plan to remove slavery from our game and setting completely. We will not be writing adventures to tell the story of how this happened. We will not be introducing an in-world event to facilitate this change.

We’re just going to move on from it, period.

It's a complete removal. 100% gone from the setting, assuming there isn't some nuance I've missed.

Long time fan here as well and not moving forward with slavery existing in Golarion is not just fine by me, but a welcome change. Slavery isn't a "bad thing" that happens. It isn't even death. It's a horrible generation destroying abuse that commodifies life and should never be treated as anything other than a nightmarish thoughtless tragedy; repugnant fails to grasp the magnitude. It isn't "a tool of the baddies," when they are taking slaves to sell to someone. Markets exist for them, and when you start breaking down every person involved from slaver to merchant to town officials sanctioning it to buyers to even citizens at the market giving tacit approval through their inaction... it becomes a lot harder to say, "Well, it's only to demonstrate how evil the bad guys really are."

I would argue that's precisely the point.

RPGs are power fantasies. Fantasy slavers aren’t so much terrible 'people' as the embodiment of slavery itself, a punching bag with the face of a horrendous monster-of-the-week taped to it.

Fighting them is a way to enjoy the cathartic release of seeing 'bad guys' get their due. And maybe – if you’re feeling a little vindictive – a little more than their due, in the hopes that others will think twice before doing the same thing. It's certainly not, in any sense of the word, support for real-life slavery as an institution.

If the villain of the week is an evil necromancer, I'm certainly not discriminating against intellectuals or religious minorities, or commenting on the Cultural Revolution or the Khmer Rouge's massacre of scholars. I just want my players to fight a bad guy with a legion of undead monsters they can destroy.

I'm certainly not trying to make a political or social statement, too.

The following is a response to the open letter in the link, which Erik Mona has kindly responded to.

Dear Erik, I'd like to state that I'm a long, long-time fan of Pathfinder. I've been playing D&D since the Dungeon Magazine days, and I still fondly remember the multi-part Adventure Paths of Shackled City, Age of Worms and Savage Tide.

I've lurked the boards for a long time, but I've finally decided to bite the bullet and open a thread for the very reasons indicated above.

I note that in your response, you mentioned the following:

Going forward, we plan to remove slavery from our game and setting completely. We will not be writing adventures to tell the story of how this happened. We will not be introducing an in-world event to facilitate this change.

While the sentiment is admirable, I seriously urge you to reconsider.

I would like to reiterate the old maxim: Depiction does not equal endorsements. Slavers, in fantasy settings, are villains that good-aligned characters usually kill in order to free slaves. Depicting slavery does not mean supporting slavery in any sense of the word, or showing it as a good thing. It’s an institution the player characters (who are Good or Neutral) find repugnant and fight against.

Removing injustices from the setting makes it less bland, more generic, and ironically less interesting. What are PCs suppose to rail against? To fight against, if you decide to remove all the objectionable content from the setting?

This is the equivalent of removing depictions of drug use from the setting, for fear that it would encourage readers to use drugs or engage in drug trafficking.

I have never seen any PCs engage in slave trading, and I’m pretty sure that no GM would support that at the table. I’m sure the anonymous writer means well, but he’s railing against phantoms.

Villains engage in villainous – and yes, problematic – actions. That’s why they’re bad people. That’s why adventures are usually about thwarting them.

I’m surprised that this hasn’t been considered: Will you remove depictions of the persecution of the faithful – For instance, the godless nation of Rahadoum – because it parallels the persecution of real-life religious minorities?

Will you remove depictions of the use of Final Blades in the French Revolution-inspired nation of Galt, because of the fear people might believe it to support capital punishment?

I’m sure you see the issues, here. Generally, slavery is a shorthand for “This guy is REALLY evil”, and not something your average person inherently supports.

Please don’t take away the stuff that makes your game interesting for fear of ‘giving offense’ where none is taken.

Love your work!

Signed,
A Long-Time Fan