aapch1's page

aapch1 wrote:

to each his own right? i see hwere you are coming from, but 4th lacked roleplay for me.... i never felt like my character was in danger, or like I could talk my way out of a situation.. The only communication was with npcs who gave quests to go kill things... and thats all we did, 4 hours a week, kill things.... get more powers, and money I dont need, and kill things..
to WOW people, it is very fun

and to people who don't like structure, or who play with rule nazis, 4th is an understandable excercise.

it had its moments of fun

This sounds like more a problem with the campaign/module/DM rather than the system itself. The system is a set of rules to govern how various actions are resolved. The world and what the player actually does is not determined by the system. I could write weeks worth of material for Pathfinder or 4th edition DnD and not have any combats at all. A lot of mystery and political intrigue would bore my group though. I could also put my group is a dungeon (we'll call it a dungeon, but it is just a fancy hallway with rooms every so often) and have them run through combat, combat, trap, combat, trap, bigger combat, and repeat forever. None of this determines if the system is good or not.

I want to apologize for the tone of my previous paragraph, but I needed to let that out or I was going to end up venting it at my wife. All that overly irritable rant aside there are a number of great modules available for Pathfinder which mix combat and non-combat portions very well to build an interesting and challenging story for the group. I have played several adventure paths and enjoyed each. I have also run/played a number of one level modules which were great. Browse the modules/APs available at your local game store and see what adventure you can't wait to run or ask your DM to do likewise if you are a player. Also, the same modules and APs can also be found on the paizo site as downloadable pdf's for cheap(some are even free).

My whole dnd life, I've been stuck with the same dm.. maybe I should try to take over the mantle as dm, with some modules, after I buy the core rulebook.

Modules come with monsters...right?
Current funds are going to allow 1 of 2 things, either the beginner box and the bestiary, or the core rulebook and a module or 2.

Sorry if I ground some gears with any of you, I just haven't had a good experience with most dnd games, but I love them. So sorry to take that out on the community, and I'm glad to be aboard, and I am so happy to be a part of this new gaming experience, I really hope I didn't reflect myself as an arrogant jerk, I just have never had a good exp. with dnd, or dnd style games. I've played the retro clones as well, but my dm ruins them.. He's a very angry person, who has a dry imagination.... but now I think with PF we are all going to have a heck of a lot more fun.

Now in that regard I will quote houstonderek

"Any RPG is only as good or bad as the effort you put into it."

I have played every version from red box on, and as a rules lawyer love structure. The rules may come across as lacking in flavor or Rp, but that's because they are just that, rules.

We have no less RP in our 4E than we do playing any other game. It relies heavily on the Dm, and is for every player to do their part to introduce the RP into a game. There are no rules for how to RP, as they are not needed.

The biggest in-game RULE for how to RP is alignment, and look how many disagreements it causes, or how many people just remove it from their system.

Now, I understand that the game removed many things that people liked, and took away aspects some considered sacred. To that indeed it is all a matter of preference. But to say a game was responsible for including the RP and didn't, I will have to respectfully disagree.

Now, I won't go all Scott Betts or Prof Cirno (those in the community will know what I mean). But I play both systems PF and 4E, and they RP just as effectively as the other.

EDIT: And I am not a WOW (or other MMO) person. I have only played them when I can't get a game, but to me they are always lacking because of the interaction with others is too gamey. It is just gear grinding to the top to raid for more gear. No one seems to appreciate the journey as much as rush to the end.

wow, I think im just a way too opinionated person... here is me giving my full respect to you, you have taken everything I've said, and proved it wrong, I thing my gm just sucks, and maybe the game just isnt for me... i appreciate your opinion, and give you my complete respect for pressing your very valid points

That's the thing aapch1, they may not be powers per se, but every action has a ruleset.

Grabbing follows the grapple rules (CMB now)
Throwing lightning uses SO MANY spell rules (DC, saves, range, durations, schools, casting times), but once you get them down in general they are easy to use for all
Paladin's smite has its own rule
Ranger favored enemy has it own rules
Rogue's sneak attacks
Druid's wild shape
Sorcerer's bloodlines
Fighter's bravery, weapon and armor training
Barbarian's Rage
Cleric's channeling

And each is incorporated with keywords, definitions and subtext that often bears looking up until you have it down. As a player it gets easy as you only need to learn one class at a time. but as a DM needing to be aware of all the p;layers have at their disposal, and the monsters as well provides for a fairly steep learning curve.

Again, I played 3.0, 3.5, and now PF, since 3.0 came out and they were the best systems for me. I just got rules burnout. This may also be from a Rules lawyer that plays the game with every rule in use.

to each his own right? i see hwere you are coming from, but 4th lacked roleplay for me.... i never felt like my character was in danger, or like I could talk my way out of a situation.. The only communication was with npcs who gave quests to go kill things... and thats all we did, 4 hours a week, kill things.... get more powers, and money I dont need, and kill things..

and to people who don't like structure, or who play with rule nazis, 4th is an understandable excercise.

it had its moments of fun

aapch1 wrote:

pathfinder looks promising, like it is returning to some good roots

I wouldn't say returning. Not deserting.

Well you get what I mean, right? And what do you mean by not deserting? It has a lot of the old system ideas, like the way spells work, aren't they all just per use, by day?

If you want them to enjoy the same game then why don't you just use the same game... there's nothing stopping you from using AD&D (or OD&D if you prefer) or a retroclone of it.

valid point, for the children, but the group wants something fresh. something new, and exciting.

Based off your intial question, if you thought 4E was smothered in rules, I think you will find PF even worse in that aspect. Part of the complaints about 4E was throwing out too many of the rules, or over-simplifying the game.

You have many more options at your disposal, but every option gets tied up in a rule, and some often need to be cross-referenced from multiple sources. I played every iteration from 1 to 4, and as a Rules lawyer, the rules became too much for me and my group.

Like said above, though, you can just ignore some of them. You have to understand them before you can ignore them, or it can throw off the system. They have a very good simulationist approach, but to achieve this it takes a lot of rules to accomplish. I'm not saying this makes the game bad, just that you had mentioned 4e was rules heavy for you.

I guess it was not that rules heavy, but it seemed like everything from grabbing someone, to throwing lightning, to taking a piss was a special power, it had its own stat,card, and effect and was dumbed down into what i consider rules. I hated the amount of writing that was forced into the game, and all the combat, combat, combat.

aapch1 wrote:

houstonderek wrote:

aapch1 wrote:

houstonderek wrote:

aapch1 wrote:

I didnt mean to give gygax a blow, he's a childhood hero.. but i felt that adnd1 coulod have been alot better, i felt gipped by the game.. there was little substance.

We played completely different AD&Ds then. The one I played was, by sheer number of players, by and far the most popular edition of the game. The one that lazy Gygax gypped all of the players with.

(And, don't argue about the numbers, someone who has actually seen the sales data for 1e, 2e and 3x backed up my statement a while back. RPGs aren't nearly the huge phenomenon they were in the '80s).

I thonk honestly we just had a crappy dungeon master for the whole 5 years I played... I literally just started reading the dungeon master guide, and this is not the game I remember playing at all

We did have a lot of crappy Dms back then, probably the reason the hobby peaked in the '80s.

Sorry if I offended you, I didn't mean what I said (I never actually read the DM guide, only the phb, it was good, but made 0 sense, so I think thats what set me off of it. I mean, how could elves not be druids? that made no sense.. but I had hours of fun being an evil cleric zombifying the stuff we just killed)lol

Eh, I just get a little bent out of shape when people rag on Gary. It would be like ragging in Henry Ford because he didn't produce a car as good as, say, a Camry in 1920. Or that the first Zenith wasn't 1080p and 3d capable.

I know where to direct my frustration atleast.. you are all right, gygax is a genius! Wotc didnt really fix much, they just made it all the same, but weird. Gygax deserves more than I gave him. A heck of a lot more, imho, (now) I think Gygax's dnd was pretty good... he just needed to personally educate dms... I found an old excerpt from a quest in the dm guide here I'll give you a taste

'the group walks into a dark room, with slime oozing from the walls, there is nothing noticable about the room except for a dead man in the center of the floor, with blood, oozing like that from the walls. If the approach the dead man they are ambushed by a beholder(beholder information) if the avoid that part of the room, they set off a trap.'

How bad was that? thats the crap me and 4 other people had to deal with for 5 years.
I want my son, and my nephews to enjoy a game like My wife and I grew up with, as well as my old group (wife included, see highschool sweethearts carry on). I really hope pathfinder is all its cracked up to be

aapch1 wrote:

houstonderek wrote:

aapch1 wrote:

I didnt mean to give gygax a blow, he's a childhood hero.. but i felt that adnd1 coulod have been alot better, i felt gipped by the game.. there was little substance.

We played completely different AD&Ds then. The one I played was, by sheer number of players, by and far the most popular edition of the game. The one that lazy Gygax gypped all of the players with.

(And, don't argue about the numbers, someone who has actually seen the sales data for 1e, 2e and 3x backed up my statement a while back. RPGs aren't nearly the huge phenomenon they were in the '80s).

I thonk honestly we just had a crappy dungeon master for the whole 5 years I played... I literally just started reading the dungeon master guide, and this is not the game I remember playing at all

We did have a lot of crappy Dms back then, probably the reason the hobby peaked in the '80s.

Sorry if I offended you, I didn't mean what I said (I never actually read the DM guide, only the phb, it was good, but made 0 sense, so I think thats what set me off of it. I mean, how could elves not be druids? that made no sense.. but I had hours of fun being an evil cleric zombifying the stuff we just killed)lol

aapch1 wrote:

I didnt mean to give gygax a blow, he's a childhood hero.. but i felt that adnd1 coulod have been alot better, i felt gipped by the game.. there was little substance.

We played completely different AD&Ds then. The one I played was, by sheer number of players, by and far the most popular edition of the game. The one that lazy Gygax gypped all of the players with.

(And, don't argue about the numbers, someone who has actually seen the sales data for 1e, 2e and 3x backed up my statement a while back. RPGs aren't nearly the huge phenomenon they were in the '80s).

I thonk honestly we just had a crappy dungeon master for the whole 5 years I played... I literally just started reading the dungeon master guide, and this is not the game I remember playing at all

I seldom play anymore, but I do DM. Look, if you have a chance to get a copy of the original 1st Edition DMG, I think you will appreciate E. Gary Gygax a lot more know as an adult than as a teenager. Unlike later editions, it didn't spell out precise rules: it taught you how to run a campaign and choose things for yourself that worked with your group. The detail contained within that volume in mindblowing, and I am so glad that my copy never decided to take a walk.

Master Arminas

I appreciate the work, and I had hundreds of hours on adnd, But I always felt rail roaded, and if not rail roaded, I felt like i was just rolling dice, checking this or that, but It was tons of fun, as I remember. I might have to blow the dust off the books, and give them another look over, see if I like the books any more, I loved them years ago, But I think I'm moving on

I really can't offer a suggestion my friend. It's all based on the type of character you want to play (which has implications in both fields of mechanics and roleplay.)

I'm glad to hear i'm not being rail roaded. Like in 4th, if you were a tirfling, you almost had to be a warlock. That was upsetting. So now, if I decide I want to be a half orc cleric, I don't have any of the wisdom issues I would have in 4th, and it's not impossible like in adnd. yay! Now I am very excited, I think first thing monday,I'm going to the comic shop, and picking up the core book, and the bestiary. thank you very much.

aapch1 wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

You'll want to be careful dissing Gygax. There are a few people around here who worship the man, and a lot more with major respect for him.

That being said, there are plenty of 'stupid' rules in Pathfinder, but generally you have to look deeper to find them. On the surface, Pathfinder tends to be more logical and it's rules make a little more sense 'in world' than 4E (though as with anything there are exceptions.)

Still not sure what you mean by cheap and pervasive though. 'Someone's laziness' doesn't explain much my friend.

I didnt mean to give gygax a blow, he's a childhood hero.. but i felt that adnd1 coulod have been alot better, i felt gipped by the game.. there was little substance. that is what i mean by pervasive, it intrudes on what basic was, and just made it bad, and complicated.. im glad to hear good things about path finder

Thank you for responding by the way

p.s.are you player, or gm?

I'm both, but I tend to GM more often than I play.

I play, what race/clas combo do you suggest?

You'll want to be careful dissing Gygax. There are a few people around here who worship the man, and a lot more with major respect for him.

That being said, there are plenty of 'stupid' rules in Pathfinder, but generally you have to look deeper to find them. On the surface, Pathfinder tends to be more logical and it's rules make a little more sense 'in world' than 4E (though as with anything there are exceptions.)

Still not sure what you mean by cheap and pervasive though. 'Someone's laziness' doesn't explain much my friend.

I didnt mean to give gygax a blow, he's a childhood hero.. but i felt that adnd1 coulod have been alot better, i felt gipped by the game.. there was little substance. that is what i mean by pervasive, it intrudes on what basic was, and just made it bad, and complicated.. im glad to hear good things about path finder

p.s.are you player, or gm?

The PAthfinder Reference Document contains most of the rules, and its free. That will give you a way to check out the rules without paying anything. Just stick with the stuff under Core Rulebook. (Or Bestiary if you want to look at monsters.)

thank you so much, this will help my decision tenfold!

You are smothered. The amount of rules in Pathfinder is one of the reasons they made the Beginner's box.

That being said, however, the 'powers' vary by class. Not entirely sure what you mean by 'Cheeky and annoying' or 'cheap and pervasive' though.

Sorry if i was unclear lol

I think I'll give patfinder a try, my group is getting antsy about a new game.

I have played rpgs ranging from dungeons and dragons white box, to 4th edition (i skipped adnd2, 3.0, and3.5) I saw pathfinder at my local comic store and literally almost cried... the beginner box looked beautiful. however, i would like to take the true plunge into the core book. is this a wise decision? what exactly does the core book cover? and how is the character creation handled? are the powers cheeky and annoying like 4th edition, or cheap and pervasive like in advanced? how does the game play out? is it rules-light, or are you smothered (like 4th ed) in rules? please let me know before i take the plunge in the core book.