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KilroySummoner wrote:

>>Racial traits:Reactionary +2 initiative, Elven Reflexes +2 initiative

These don't stack (trait bonuses)

Also you just get one trait generally in PFS... and summoners can't have power attack at first level.

Okay... So drop one of the racial traits and change out feat progression for scribe scroll at level one, with power attack gained at level three. Nitpicking racial traits and feat progression that is interchangeable doesn't invalidate the point I made. This is a fifteen point buy summoner. I felt the build gave way to much melee capability coupled with powerful utility. Also I didn't give the Eidolon buffs or magical enhancements of any kind. I generalized that greater invisibility through improved share spell promotes a game breaking tempo because of Eidolon evolutions.

And the weakness is that after one dismissal spell the summoner has effectively become a cleric that can't heal and has a crappier spell list for that fight. Or one failed sleep save on the summoner. Etc. The Eidolon is FAR easier to permanently remove from a fight than a PC.

I'll concede the point on Dismissal being amazing against a summoner. A summoner can just be an Elf or Half Elf for elven immunities to negate sleep. Let's say that the summoner doesn't have any spell slots left for the day after the dismissal and can't just cast the level two spell Summon Eidolon. They still have their ability to summon monsters based on three plus charisma mod as a standard action. Am I assuming that standard action summons are better then they seem to other players? I'd like to know if I am over valuing them as my argument is based solely on the reach or capability of the single class.

This is an amazing thread! I love hearing cool anecdotes from other players about their truly memorable experiences. This one actually made me laugh:

Perhaps not the nicest thing...

I was in a 2nd edition game with a rogue/wizard and another player had found a gemstone he thought might be magic. He asked me to examine it. I did - it held three wishes. Heh. I examined it a bit more. "Hmm, this is a tough one. I sure wish I was smarter. Lets see. No, that won't work. I wish I was a more powerful wizard. If I were, I'm sure I'd figure this out in no time." I had him by me a drink, finished it, then returned to examining his gem. "My friend, this gem has a failing enchantment on it, it was being enchanted, but the process was never completed, it would have been added to a pommel of a sword to make it a frost brand. I wish my sword was a frostbrand. Oh well, here's your gem. Sorry it doesn't do anything."

While between an Eidolon and summoner there are four possible atk's per round at level one, I feel the true turning point for overpowered is when the summoner can take improved share spell at level eleven. I am not saying they aren't overpowered until level eleven by any means either. Even if the summoner's Eidolon is killed or dismissed the summoner has the standard action summoning super natural ability. When playing my summoner, I felt this ability was more critical then my Eidolon's raw DPR. It was a utility tool for tight situations each gaming session. This was my first mock up of a summoner and pet. I decided against it because I felt it would make the party members feel worthless or dependent upon the Eidolon.

Half Elf Favored class Summoner level 11, 15 point buy

Kintaro Biped Eidolon

Once the summoner gets fifth level spells you should have the Eidolon take the Grab evolution. That way the summoner can cast hungry pit and let the Eidolon pick out key players with fifteen foot reach and drop them in the pit. All this time he can be invisible and/or flying above them exploiting reach.

The Summoner class has incredible renewable damage capability and utility. Usually you have to sacrifice one for the other.

I just started a summoner two weeks ago. I had a hard time picking a theme considering the multitude of options. After researching the evolutions and aspects I thought of a Predator with an Alien pet. Another was a four arm biped that looked like Kintaro with Shao Kahn as the summoner. There were plenty more but I didn't want to break the game with a min max biped.
I opted for a quadraped and began drawing a blank for a theme. I didn't want to play a generic beast master type, so I made my own back story about eidolons. Unknown to the summoner, the Eidolon is a loved one or mate that's love did not die when their body did. Their energy drifted above the planes waiting to reconnect with the PC, once they were reborn. Once the PC is born the Eidolon would descend in a maelstrom of energy into the infant. It would act as the PC's conscience and guide them through difficult times until the PC actualized their ability to grant the Eidolon form. Whether or not the Eidolon communicates about the situation, could be up to the PC. It could also be saved for the DM to use to fill in story holes etc.

This would explain the Eidolon's blind devotion to the summoner. At least it played out in my mind that way. Random guy summons them all the time and lets them die without there being any hard feelings. There should be more to it then that. There is a lot more written but that is the generalization of it. It doesn't even have to be a former loved one that is the Eidolon. It could have just been that the feeling they had for the PC was so strong it became sentient and lived on itself. This could also work for people who died prematurely or were victims of a tragedy.(cohesion for past characters the PC played?)

I think that there are more then enough examples of actual martial art forms to derive a list from. A way to pick martial arts for the book could be to pick a static number you would like to apply to each class. I'm more interested in their application to current classes. Like fleshing out characters by applying "martial art x" to "y" class. An example would be a version of professional wrestling to Barbarian. Feat association begins to manifest in the players mind. I'd want that character to have a grapple feats that chain to throws. This is also an opportunity to fix player issues with the monk class by giving each associated martial art/feat progression a specific role. The following are some ideas that include previous feat progression so that entire feat lines don't have to be made per form. I have also tried to tailor them to specific classes to supplement current roles.

Barbarian: Greco-Roman, Freestyle Sambo
Feat: allows throw anything to include people with a damage modifier based on slam.
Feat: Neck Crank/Leg Lock, Adds bonus damage to grapple with a threat range and critical modifier.

Bard: Capoeira, Tai Chi
Capoeira could unlock Dazzling display without weapon focus. It could also unlock deadly stroke at BAB +8, minus the con bleed.
Tai chi could be used to enhance save checks against fear etc based on the clearness of mind. This could be an enhancement bonus to the bards various buffs for choosing this form.

Druid: Animal styles/Wild Style (generic I know)
The druid forms an affinity for specific wild creatures and tries to emulate them. At levels 1-3 magic weapon could have a bonus if cast on self. This would be to vary the usual shillelagh leveling. At 4th level and each beast shape afterward the druid can pick a favored form. When the druid cast magic fang on themselves and then wild shapes before the duration ends the magic fang applies to natural attacks of the beast shape for the duration of the beast shape. This option could be made available only if animal companion is not chosen. This could be a way to narrow the disparity in damage per round.

Fighter: Generic feat selection
Fighters should be be able to pick almost any combat feat. I don't believe fighters deserve a fighter only martial art. They will have the ability to cherry pick their favorite feats and build better feat progressions due to the fact that they are a fighter in the first place.

Monk: First and foremost,
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/whyAllTheMonkHate

The main points I took from this thread were mobility, role, and MAD. I think a simple solution would be Monk only feat progressions. I believe after the normal monk feats and APG monk styles the monk may be overloaded if you add another twenty fighting styles to their arsenal. Instead you could make the monk feats be based on personal growth of the monk and independently developing their own style. Unlocking the secret truths of martial arts as they level. Below is an example, that would also help fix the mobility argument.

mobility focused feats- Tailor feats to play off their mobility by adding special attacks that use mobility or make comparable damage to flurry.

Shadowless kick: has a damage modifier based on charge distance.

Greater shadowless kick: has a flurry built into it.

I feel like this post is drifting off topic as far as what the OP asked for. Therefor I am cutting it off here.