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Where is your player growing the 2 extra arms from?

Flurry
Right hand (BAB primary)
Left hand (2-wpn primary)
Right Hand (BAB secondary)
Left Hand (2 wpn secondary) (Brawler 8th lvl)

Non-flurry
Right hand (BAB primary)
Right Hand (BAB secondary)

the multiattack feat reduces the use of a natural attack from -5 to -2, so the Right hand secondary would only take a -2 from BAB not the -5 as listed in your example so only -4. There is nothing in there that gives them extra natural attacks. Feral training only changes the way their natural attacks interact with the flurry it doesn't add to them. So rather than using their basic fists in the flurry they can now use their natural attacks in the flurry, presumably the natural attack to hit and dmg being higher than just their fists.

Look up the demon-seraptis for example of the listing in a monster listing, 1 wpn + 3 natural or 4 natural attacks. This is similar as Imp Unarmed strike turns your fists into wpns, without the feral combat training, they would have to choose flurry with human fists or 2 strikes with shifter claws at BAB & BAB-2.

I would also enjoying seeing a Character Option Compendium as well, that could contain all the Feats, Archetypes, traits and drawbacks from all of the 1e content published.

yes because every one always has access to a library that has every single piece of info one could possibly need at any given time ever most libraries barley have books relevant to most plot points much less a 4000000 book series of encyclopedia Britannica of all knowledge ever in every library in existence

That is the literal point of the Pathfinder society, to have that information somewhere. There is of course not going to be any form of library that has everything, but at the level you would be facing the creatures that would need these checks you have access to magics that can get the player's group to where ever they need, whether in party or via NPC. Also most major churches have written histories as well as most kingdom centers. And no they won't have the series of britannica's, but they will have legends and happenings worthy of note for hundreds of years of the local area. This is how you give your players the info they need in game with real reasons and real checks and real rewards. Even failures can lead to new knowledge or new side quests.

The ability to research just about anywhere has been a long standing, but little used part of the game. It plays/ed a major part of Carrion Crown AP and has been sprinkled into many of the APs since then. Any large collection of tomes can be used to provide a +1 to +5 on any knowledge check for various subjects. The content of the collection determines the knowledge checks you can make and how strong the bonus is. Just because the system isn't used by a group or DM doesn't mean it isn't useful. I use it, my players use it and it works for us.

Legion42 wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Legion42 wrote:

The meeting the DC of the check gives all of the info in the Attack and Defense blocks of the creature as well as the senses. This is Almost Everything relevant to a random encounter.

That's a house rule, I take it?

My whole system is a house rule, but that is a hard definition I created to cover the ambiguous "A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster" from the knowledge skill description in the RAW. The full passage from my original post is: Success on the check gives a player the Senses, Defense and Offense blocks with an in-world flavor description. Every 5 over adds another info block (special ability descriptions, ecology, or statistics) with flavor description.

I also tend to use the Trained Skill total of the player as a guide to general "hey that looks like x." If the player's skill total (skill points, ability and modifies) equals the CR of the creature or more they gain automatic access to the Name and general alignment of the race/species and the strength of the creature relative to the party (CR). Creature CR due to class levels are not counted in that passive check. Untrained skills (IE no skill points) never provide general info and must always roll for any info and cap at the standard 10.

The issue is that you are using CR twice, which inflates the DCs.

yes, but it only inflates the DC by 5 based on the CR. The CR reflects the strength of the target, stronger targets leave less living references and thus make valid available knowledge harder to acquire. And I always intended to have high level checks be harder that was the point of modifying the DC table in the first place. At RAW the Tarrasque is a DC 40 check, in my system it is a DC 50. That is intentional. That thing kills everything it meets and the standard survivors that have written about it did so hundreds of years ago. So a total Skill comparision hey I have a 26 total arcana (3+6+17), hey that looks like a Tarrasque. My teacher described it to me once. Roll to see if I know anymore? check of 46 max you don't know anything more than running is a good option. Or hey we are going to maybe have to fight a terrasque in the next few weeks, I take 20 researching in the pathfinder society libraries (+5) and now I get a 51, terrasques are rumored to have these abilities and resistances.

Legion42 wrote:

The meeting the DC of the check gives all of the info in the Attack and Defense blocks of the creature as well as the senses. This is Almost Everything relevant to a random encounter.

That's a house rule, I take it?

My whole system is a house rule, but that is a hard definition I created to cover the ambiguous "A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster" from the knowledge skill description in the RAW. The full passage from my original post is: Success on the check gives a player the Senses, Defense and Offense blocks with an in-world flavor description. Every 5 over adds another info block (special ability descriptions, ecology, or statistics) with flavor description.

I also tend to use the Trained Skill total of the player as a guide to general "hey that looks like x." If the player's skill total (skill points, ability and modifies) equals the CR of the creature or more they gain automatic access to the Name and general alignment of the race/species and the strength of the creature relative to the party (CR). Creature CR due to class levels are not counted in that passive check. Untrained skills (IE no skill points) never provide general info and must always roll for any info and cap at the standard 10. This allows for just about anyone to identify at least basic combat info about all CRs from 1/8th to 5 without much issue.

Legion42 wrote:

And yes I realize that at 20th level with a +0 stat bonus and non class you cap at identifying CR 20 at DC 40 on a 20 roll, but you can also take 10 and know almost everything about a CR 15 or less.

No one cares at all about anything that's CR of (APL-5). And actually in your system you can't: That CR 15 critter is DC of 30, which your character just hits with a Take 10. At 20th level. Which means one piece of useful info, not "almost everything".

Other skills become useless at high levels, but Knowledge skills didn't. And often in the base system, simple identification became easy as players ramped skills up, high level creatures tend to have more interesting things to learn, so beating it by a lot is still useful.

Alright so taking a look at D20pfsrd for CR 15+ non 3PP creatures there are 88 specific creatures and 101 various high level dragon types listed. We are quibbling about less than 5% of the total creature list. I look at this and think we are going to go fight Grendel-kin tomorrow using Beowulf as a guide to their abilities.

The meeting the DC of the check gives all of the info in the Attack and Defense blocks of the creature as well as the senses. This is Almost Everything relevant to a random encounter. There are very few unique one-shot special abilities that would need specific detailing with a higher check. SR is SR no matter what the values are. Also if you are random encountering APL+(0-6) CR single creature encounters you should speak to your DM about his encounter tables. That's generally fine with Plot encounters, but randoms should normally be groups that equal the CR. IE 3 CR 15's to make a CR 18 encounter or 6 CR 15's to make a 20.

If you want to look at Class level based CRs the knowledge checks almost always give you crap info about the character anyway. It won't give you feats, equipment bonuses, prepared spells, or any player choice based abilities. Knowledge local or Diplomacy(Gather info) and some research might give you some of these details, but never for on the fly meetings.

Legion42 wrote:

Lady-J wrote:

Legion42 wrote:

I tend to run a minor modification to the the base 10+CR rule. It says in the text "For common monsters, such as goblins, the DC of this check equals 5 + the monster’s CR. For particularly rare monsters, such as the tarrasque, the DC of this check equals 15 + the monster’s CR or more." I use the CR rating to determine the commonality of the base check.

CR 0-5 is common with a base DC of 5+CR
CR 6-10 is uncommon with a base DC 10+CR
CR 11-15 is rare with a base DC of 15+CR
CR 16-20 is epic with a base DC of 20+CR
CR 21+ is legendary with a base DC of 25+CR

so a character who is level 20 and has 20 ranks in a non class knowledge skill and only has an int of 14(lets say they are a fighter who invested in knowledge arcana for some reason) cant even identify a legendary creature of 1cr higher then themselves on a natural 20 as with a natural 20 they will get a total of 42 but they need a 46 under your rules

That is correct. They would need to use some form of additional magic (guidance, inspire, fox's cunning), library research or other way to get a buff to their base score to make a successful identification. But honestly your example is not a common situation. it would be very rare for a player to dump 20 skill points into a non-class, non-primary stat background knowledge skill. Also with that skill level they can Identify all most any standard creature of CR 20 of below in good detail with a good roll on the fly, and know basic info just with a look. Besides the CR 21+ level party should have players in the party with class, primary stat knowledge levels that should be able to get that check with a better percentage. IE the wizard in the party with the same 20 skill points a 22 Int and a class bonus would be getting a 49 on a 20, or the bard that would be getting a 59.

Even the wizard isn't likely to have all the knowledge skills by himself. Someone's got to cover the others. And note that even the wizard needs a...

That is true. I do run the unchained background skill system almost exclusively in my home campaigns so that helps some in my group, but I do see the issue you are pointing out. Also there is probably a decent bit of meta at my table so it turns the "it's a x" into oh I remember that from last campaign it does this rather than an in character issue.

Most of these comments concern random encounters more than Plot encounters. Plot encounters give the players move available pre-combat buff opportunities to gain the knowledge via checks while random encounters require the on the fly checks. Also this system implies that if you keep one or 2 knowledge skills at level that you should be passingly familiar with and CR+Stat creature equal to the party that skill covers. If you ask around town for info on threats in the area (k local) or use k geo to get an idea of threats, you can do some research to get those bonuses before you wander blindly into the wilderness. And yes I realize that at 20th level with a +0 stat bonus and non class you cap at identifying CR 20 at DC 40 on a 20 roll, but you can also take 10 and know almost everything about a CR 15 or less. It is all about skill focus (Not the feat) and where you want to be good at things. Clerics religion/planes, druids/rangers nature/dungeon, wizards/soc arcane/planes, rogue dungeon/local, fighters dungeon. And to be honest most characters are not learned scholars who spend all of their time studying and reading, they learn in the field on the fly. If your party wants to make the checks they put in the points, if they don't then they won't.

As to the becoming useless at high level you can say that about most non-class low stat skills. Healing, Intimidate, fly, acrobatics or any non-contested skills suffer from the same kind of applicable uselessness as you place skill points into them after a certain point as their DC thresholds cap out or they become "nat 20 to succeed" checks. While the variable opposed skills do the opposite and become skill offs, I have a +18 perception you have a +16 stealth who rolls the highest, type of checks.

Legion42 wrote:

I tend to run a minor modification to the the base 10+CR rule. It says in the text "For common monsters, such as goblins, the DC of this check equals 5 + the monster’s CR. For particularly rare monsters, such as the tarrasque, the DC of this check equals 15 + the monster’s CR or more." I use the CR rating to determine the commonality of the base check.

CR 0-5 is common with a base DC of 5+CR
CR 6-10 is uncommon with a base DC 10+CR
CR 11-15 is rare with a base DC of 15+CR
CR 16-20 is epic with a base DC of 20+CR
CR 21+ is legendary with a base DC of 25+CR

so a character who is level 20 and has 20 ranks in a non class knowledge skill and only has an int of 14(lets say they are a fighter who invested in knowledge arcana for some reason) cant even identify a legendary creature of 1cr higher then themselves on a natural 20 as with a natural 20 they will get a total of 42 but they need a 46 under your rules

That is mostly correct. They would need to use some form of additional magic (guidance, inspire, fox's cunning), library research or other way to get a buff to their base score to make a successful detailed identification. They would be able to identify basic info of a CR 22 or lower, the name and CR with just their skill total of 22. But honestly your example is not a common situation. it would be very rare for a player to dump 20 skill points into a non-class, non-primary stat background knowledge skill. Also with that skill level they can Identify all most any standard creature of CR 20 of below in good detail with a good roll on the fly, and know basic info just with a look. Besides the CR 21+ level party should have players in the party with class, primary stat knowledge levels that should be able to get that check with a better percentage. IE the wizard in the party with the same 20 skill points a 22 Int and a class bonus would be getting a 49 on a 20, or the bard that would be getting a 59.

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

I'd be lying if I said I hadn't seen/heard those questions at a table.

LOL Sounds like I'd have fun playing there. ;)

Knowledge Local for the win..

I tend to run a minor modification to the the base 10+CR rule. It says in the text "For common monsters, such as goblins, the DC of this check equals 5 + the monster’s CR. For particularly rare monsters, such as the tarrasque, the DC of this check equals 15 + the monster’s CR or more." I use the CR rating to determine the commonality of the base check.

CR 0-5 is common with a base DC of 5+CR
CR 6-10 is uncommon with a base DC 10+CR
CR 11-15 is rare with a base DC of 15+CR
CR 16-20 is epic with a base DC of 20+CR
CR 21+ is legendary with a base DC of 25+CR

This may seem odd, but it really rewards knowledge based characters and bards who tend to have crazy checks towards the later levels. An 18th level bard with 1 skill rank in every skill can take 10 and make a 32 before adding stat bonuses to most knowledge checks and that doesn't even take into account the Legend Lore auto 20 checks. Sorcerer/Wizards with arcane focus, rangers/druids with nature and clerics/oracles with religion and planes with even 10 ranks can take 10s and get 23+Stat on checks without issue. On a d20 you are looking at 28-33+Stat about 25% of the time. Success on the check gives a player the Senses, Defense and Offense blocks with an in-world flavor description. Every 5 over adds another info block flavor description.

I also tend to use the Trained Skill total of the player as a guide to general "hey that looks like x." If the player's skill total equals the CR of the creature or more they gain automatic access to the Name and general alignment of the race/species and the strength of the creature relative to the party (CR). Of course creature class levels are not counted in that check. Untrained skills never provide general info and must always roll for any info and cap at the standard 10.

So a Drow wizard with 6 class levels, would be CR 5, but the race is only CR 1/3. A character with 2 ranks, int 16 with a trained skill total of +8 would know the NPC is drow and that they are generally evil and given the physical description could surmise his class as arcane caster of some type. The knowledge check would net out at a DC 10 (5+CR). So a 2+ on the die would get the player the basic physical capabilities in general terms, he's a caster with a spell component pouch and a dagger, no armor, he looks slightly clumsy and frail but a determined look in his eyes shows a strong will. You know that drow have the normal elven resistances to mind affects and that they tend to resist magic. They have darkvision and some minor illusion magics at will.

Taking or rolling 10 would then net a check of 18 adding either the stat block or the ecology block depending on the player's info needs plus more OoC detailed descriptions of the offense and defense blocks. Rolling a nat 20 gets a 28, success with 3 extra info sets, which would get them full details about the NPC outside of prepped spells or gear's magical enhancements as there is no way to know that kind of specific info from the check. Somethings like feats are harder to describing in character, but I tend to let the players know OoC details with high checks, not the actual numbers but at least full special ability descriptions and the like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPZtFQvUuWw is a pretty reasonable set of examples and discussion of this alignment.

QuidEst, do you know of any examples in media or literature of hackers aiding one another against the same device, simultaneously, in a somewhat sensible/realistic fashion?

The show Sense8 on Netflix has some reasonable group hacking going on.

Now these are physical examples, but they can be applied to an internal logic as well. Hacker 3 could be blocking and spoofing the server on the network to isolate the external warning and monitoring systems of the network, hacker 2 would be working the actual hack and hacker 1 would be suppressing the internal security and monitoring routines that would attempt to remove the data or increase the security levels.

Johnny Mnemonic is also an older but decent movie that has some dual/multi hacker movie style setups.

We use a replacement style system for multiple attack roles. You can either down grade a Critical success to a standard success or a standard success to a miss to negate any fumbles rolled in the full round attack. you can also choose to take the fumble if you want. Unless the fumble effect causes you to lose actions, the rest of the attacks still finish out with any additional penalties from the fumble applied.

If a fumble is still active we then use the Laying Waste fumble charts (we use them for crits as well) which allow for a saving throw, generally a DC 20, to avoid the fumble's affects.

Thanks all

My play group has finally finished the Skull & Shackles set and I am now looking to get the Wrath of the Righteous sets. I have run into something odd and I was wondering if you guys know the answer.

I am seeing 2 sets of box art for Wrath of the Righteous. One is Silver and one is Red for the adventures, and the Main box is red or yellow. Is one an updated printing?

Sorry if this is out there already, but I couldn't think of a good way to search for the topic.

Alright, so with the new Ultimate Intrigue the Feat Cat's Fall feat has been added.

"When you succeed at a DC 15 Acrobatics skill check to soften a fall, you ignore the first 20 feet of that fall and convert the damage from the next 10 feet of the fall to nonlethal damage. You land on your feet as long as you take less than 20 points of damage from the fall."

In Dirty Tactics Toolbox the Feat Equipment Trick (Cloak) is listed. One of the tricks for the cloak is:

Parachute Cloak (Acrobatics 5 ranks) While wearing a cloak, you can adjust your grip so that it catches the air as you fall. If you use both of your hands to hold on to your cloak as you fall, you can attempt a DC 20 Acrobatics check to ignore the first 20 feet fallen (as opposed to the usual DC 15 check to ignore only the first 10 feet), and you avoid falling prone at the end of your jump even if you take damage.

So the language of both feats use "ignore the first 20 feet" when falling.

The question my players have asked is this:

Can they both be applied to a fall by making 2 separate skill tests for the fall?

One at the start to enable the Parachute Cloak at the top of the fall and then a second to enable Cat's fall at the bottom. If both checks passed they would ignore 40 ft of fall, take nonlethal for 10, then avoiding falling prone with all other damage being applied normally. If both checks fail then you would take damage normally. If only one succeeds then you would apply the benefit as normal for the successful role.

I am currently running a city based campaign with an intrigue/superhero theme and they are really wanting to do the Hero drop thing so I don't really have an issue with this, but I figured I would ask the community. Dedicating 2 feats to this seems worth the effort. There are only a few buildings in the city that are over 60 ft tall, but many that are 30-40. I have instituted a ruling on dropping on people already that seems to be working well so I'm not concerned about them landing on bad guys.

Should I increase the DC of the Cat's Fall check? To me this seems like the increased DC of something like avoiding AoE on multiple foes. So increasing the DC by +@ or +5 seems reasonable.

While playing my Session this weekend I had a house guest who wished to get in on our RotR play session. This added a 7th player to our game for the evening. I decided to just run the game with the standard 8 locations and 30 blessings in the count down deck. This seemed to work in a tolerable manner but it came down to turn 30 in scenario one, turn 27 in the second scenario and the third scenario ended on 28. That seems pretty common from the other listings on the board here for a scenario with a high player count, but these still seemed to be very close calls from the other player's perspectives and I agree with them.

My concern is that it did not follow the Players +2 location guideline from the standard play. I think that a 9th location should have been added with it's own 10 card location deck and another henchman. This then leads me to believe that successfully completing the game in the normal timeline of 30 turns would prove unmanageable without extreme levels of luck.

So I am looking for feed back on the purposed changes for such sessions that I have laid out below. If there is another thread out there for this line of thought please point me there as I wasn't able to locate one.

- Additional Locations -
To add a Location for the new player select the last location from the the Scenario prior then if another player is added take the first location from the following Scenario.

Do this for each additional player that is added to the game. I suggest to continue to stagger the locations if possible, taking location 8 from the previous then location 1 from the following, then 7 then 2 until the location total has been met.

DO NOT use locations from outside the adventure path. If you are in the First Scenario of the adventure you must choose the First location of the second Scenario and if you are in the Last Scenario you must choose the last of the previous Scenario.

The location deck would be built using all of the normal rules. The Henchmen card would need to be a proxy of some sort. I would suggest using a henchman card from another scenario, with it using all of the rules from the current henchmen in the scenario. This will maintain the Color indication system and remove the possibility of confusing the "proxy" with a standard boon/bane card. This proxy would then be mixed into the normal villain/henchman pile and added to the location decks.

- Increasing the Blessing Turn Order (needs the most work) -
The current Turns to players ratio is hard to replicate and maintain the notion of a successful game. The Players:Turns:cards 1:30:30, 2:15:40, 3:10:50, 4:7.5:60, 5:6:70 and 6:5:80 works very well, but breaks down going forward. 7:4.25:90 and 8:3.75:100 makes for a too tight turn limit for the additional cards added for the locations.

So I am suggesting that the Blessings deck be increased to maintain a full 5 Turn Limit for all Players. Essentially adding 5 Blessings to the Blessings Deck per additional player beyond the 6th.

Yes I know that adding 10 location cards and 5 turns per player seems like too many turns, but with the standard variance of the location decks it is likely that this will keep the players down to the wire on most scenarios. I was toying with the idea for allowing for more turns with a calculation like Players-2 in turns, so 8 players would have 6 turns for 100 location cards and 9 would have 7 for 110, but that seems to add too much positive variance to balance out the negative variance of the addition location decks.

- All other rules -
This system specifically avoids messing with player decks and available boon cards. The adventure paths as we have played them so far seem very well balanced within their own adventure sets. I do not feel that modifying the player's power level due to additional players, up or down, is unnecessary.

The adding new players in ongoing games rules would still apply for any character deck creation.

Shattering and Breaking are listed in the Magic Items section of the Dungeoneer's Handbook on page 28.

In my world I have created a Specific NPC, his name is Bob. Bob is a 90 year old 20th level wizard and has an extreme case of the scatterbrain. Bob runs a magic shop called Bob's Bargain Basement. His store exists in a small demi-plane that has a random chance to attach its door to any empty store front door in the material plane at any given moment. think Howl's Moving Castle style only random based on the size of the city. His inventory is supplied by a magical contract that transports any "lost" magical item from the material plane directly into the store. Bob does not have the time or inclination to organize or identify any of the items in the cramped shop. He organizes his shelves and aisles by item time but the contract stocks the shelves. His magical rings appear on a peg board that is 10 pegs by 15 pegs and stacked 10 rings deep per peg.

If asked what a specific item is he describes the items physical characteristics and is immune to the effects of any item brought to the store by the contract. Since bob has no idea what the item is he has no inclination of what to charge for them. I roll a d100 to determine what percentage he charges for the item of its actual cost. This may seem like a very monty haulish kind of place until you take into account that most intentionally lost items are cursed items. The aisles between the shelves require that any medium sized character wearing med armor or heavier must shuffle sideways down the aisle to avoid knocking items off of the shelves. Any item, normal or cursed, that falls off of a shelf has a percentage chance, usually 40%, to attempt to equip itself to the player.

all that aside, I once made the mistake of allowing the party to search for Bob's at 1:30 in the morning while in the middle of a sugar high and little actual sleep proceeding the marathon game. The players decided to break into 3 2-player teams and "attack" Bob with 3 competing conversations among 6 PCs at the same time. After 20 RL minutes of round robin appraisals, Bob's failed memory checks, bluff attempts and general all around confusion on my part the players walked away with a tidy sum of gear. As well as a purple PC, a gender changed rogue, a male fighter who's hair had been polymorphed into flowering ivy and magically compulsed dwarf. to this day they still chuckle at me when I start on the sugar train.

I have not read all 450ish posts in this thread, I stopped around 120, but I hadn't seen anyone make the following distinction.

Combat maneuvers replace the "melee attack" not the Attack Action. It seems that these two terms are being confused and used to mean the same thing. they are not. An Attack Action is a Standard Action. A melee attack is the time it take to use a weapon during an Action.

A sunder attempt is not a melee attack. A melee attack is an attack that targets a "person" in an attempt to do HP damage. A sunder attempt is an attack that targets an object in an attempt to do structural damage to the item. The wording at the end of the sunder description is not imply that it is a Standard Action, but rather to acknowledge that it is not a melee attack but it can be used as one.

All of the Combat maneuvers that require more than the standard melee attack time, state this in the very first line by saying "x is a Standard Action." where x= feint, overrun, grapple, and bullrush.

The wording on the benefits of Vital strike states that you make a Single melee attack during your Attack Action. It cannot be used during an AoO as AoO is not taken during your Attack Action, which is only available on your turn. A Full Round Attack is a series of melee attacks that use all available BAB attacks as a Full Round Action which is a combination of the Standard Action and the Move Action. Which to me means that Vital Stike is using the Standard Action required for the Full Attack Action and that a Full Attack Action is using the Standard Action required for Vital Strike, making them mutually exclusive. As for Charging - "Charging is a full round action(..)" is stated in the first line of the charge description. As a full round action it replaces all other actions in the round for the character. Any Action that takes more than a Swift Action cannot be preformed in the same round as a declared charge action.

That being said the melee attack associated with a Charge can be replaced by any of the Combat Maneuvers that are Melee Attack replacement effects, i.e. trip, disarm, and sunder, as well as bull rush which has the direct exception in its description.

A good way to go would be to follow the theme of the dungeon/tower. If you don't have one, define it. Is is a demon tower, a natural cave system, a jungle monolith or a desert palace? Do you want the living challenges to be intellegent or animalistic?

Having an hyper intelegent/wise creature like a sphynix might be interesting. Asking each language group a portion of a riddle in their language with the answer being dependant on the combination of the individual answers.

Other intellegent monsters challenges could be about group unit tactics. overcomming an entrenched enemy group through teamwork.

Using plant creatures and animal creatures that are familiar to certain memebers of the party may lead those members to try to take leadership roles to avoid problematic descisions.

A fun in-house created plant I've used is a spore producing fungus that was mutated in a null magic environment. The spore cloud does not harm the players, but instead produces a 5ft radius null magic zone when disturbed. so the zone is one 3x3 square. the fungus grows in patches of 5ft squares at toadstool height (2-3 inches) outdoors and upwards of 10-12 inches in good conditions indoors. Every 3 inches of growth increases the radius by 5 ft.

these little guys create interesting situations where teamwork is neccessary when magic would have gotten them through something easily.

Somewhere out there I've seen rules for sanctifying/consecrating an item for use as a holy symbol.. It was a cash addition to to armor and weapons like the skill bonus add ons. I think it ran about +75 gp to the item's base cost. I'm not certain it was in the rulings for the addition, but I always house ruled that it had to display the actual symbol. I did allow a one time craft/stealth check to disguise the symbol during the crafting process that set a permanent perception DC to notice the hidden symbol. It was a little pricey for 1st level PCs but well worth it later.

Also a Light shield allows you to hold an item in hand while still maintaining your AC bonus. I might rule that you lose your AC if you use the hand for something else, like drinking the potion you've been holding for the last 3 rounds without managing to break or pack searching, but not for divine focus or component issues.

There are very few detailed descriptions of the kind you are looking for. My best suggestion would be to look through the adventure paths you have access too in hard copy from the stores around you. They tend to give a better description of the individual establishments and what they have for sale. Building security is largely a DM decision. A good quality lock or better, or alarm spells with a spell trigger, AoE of some immobilizing or paralyzing sort, usually works the best. Most magic shop owners are casters themselves so they cover the stores themselves for security as well.

Each city that is detailed in the gazetteers and other media also have a listing for available magic items and the max item cost/purchase value based on it's the size of the city for an average magic campaign. These are guide lines of course, but good places to start.

You can also go with fantastical means as well. Have the shop occupy a pocket dimension that only links to the shop door during hours of business or craft all of the display cases from tiny slices of a permanent wall of force.

I ran in an all lycan group while in the 3.5 setting. bear, tiger, rat wolf all in one group. Interesting story line about a lycan becoming a minor diety and looking to start a churh/following. Any way you might want to check the 3.5 monster manual for more clarification, I don't remember too many issues with the builds outside of ecl balancing after basic creation. If I remember correctly they had them set as templates in the MM. After reading the Bestiary, p. 196 and pp. 313-314 I would think that you would be best treating a natural born as a +1 level template. Where I would say an afflicted character would be +0 level template because they loose player control when hybridized.

James, which is just as silly as dual wielding heavy shields? No offense intended.

Andostre do you consider a spiked shield to be a weapon or a shield or can it not be both?

According to the base rules the shield is a shield and is enhanced as one. The spikes are the weapon and are enhanced as such separately. You can only apply the enhancements from the weapon chart to the spikes. They have separate bonus calculations. The +1/+10 of the spikes attack do nothing for the AC bonus provided to the PC just as the +1/+10 of the shield defense do nothing for the attack of the PC.

I guess I should have said magic items instead of magic devices in my previous post. Single activation traps with no reset are like one use items and self reseting are like wands and staffs. So you can use the table from page 267 of the Core Book to determine info about the trap. The Spellcraft check would use the trap's CR instead of the item's caster level.

Also giving the rogue a circumstance bonus from the info might be a suitable benefit. Kind of like giving a PC a bonus to a second perception test after another party member points out something he saw but others didn't. I would think that a +2 for succeeding on the Knowledge (arcana) check or a +4 for a successful Spellcraft check wouldn't be too far off the mark. This would be useful for lower level PCs to bypass magical traps earlier in their adventures, which means that you could feel more at ease placing them in their path.

A rogue in a CR 3 party cannot succeed on a DC 27 Acid Arrow trap with regularity. A 4th Level rogue with great dex (19) and max ranks with mastercraft tools would have a 13(?, 4(dex)+4(skill)+3(trained)+2(tools)) plus the d20 which means he would need a 14 just to break even. Giving him +2 or +4 brings it down to a manageable 12 or 10. A much safer number for multiple traps in a dungeon and it gives even xp for the party rather than throwing that same CR 3 trap against a CR6 party because the rogue can finally manage to not blow himself or the party up disarming it.

I usually rule that magical traps are magical devices for purpose of the detect magic spell. which is no different than detect snares and pits. Any magical trap has stored energies that can be detected by those looking. A rogue has been taught to see the physical signs that are necessary to hold those magics. To use a Forgotten Realms term, "the rogue/ranger reads the world while a mage reads the Weave." I have always assumed most magical traps were hidden in some way to mask them. Either in other text, in some form of art, with the smallest inscriptions possible, or by some other means. They are also naturally smaller in size for their CR compared to mechanical traps.

Even if you can find a trap with the spell this does not mean that the magic user has the means to disable the trap without greater means. A glyph carved into a stone wall can be destroyed with a stone shape spell. As will an area or targeted dispel magic. Also warp wood can provide enough damage to simple traps to foul them. These are done at the expense of a spell slot. While a rogue need only spend time with a check.

Often if a rogue feels he cannot disable the trap he will call on the magic user to bypass it or the tank if it is a physical trap. Throwing a high HP/AC PC in front of attack trap or a high save PC into a trap to activate it without endangering the rest of the party. Then using the reset time to the party's advantage is a valid tactic.

On a different note, remember that detection magics must be used for a full round to produce results. scanning the room/hallway one section at a time will be time consuming. Having to take one 5 ft square at a time is arguable with the 60 ft cone, you could say that by the time they are within 10 ft you would have had time for 3 rnds if they are moving at a reasonable rate. And yes they can cast the spell as often as they wish but they have to maintain concentration which means that PC won't be doing anything else. If they get to abusing it you could always institute a mental fatigue condition that can scale into exhaustion. Giving int and wis penalties instead of the normal str and dex penalties.

Demons, devils, heck any outsider will due. Most have 5-10 DR/something even at low CRs. They also get minor teleporation in later levels. Add in their resistances and immunities and you negate most common weapon buffs as well. True Story in 3.5: 3 erinyes with a full attack action + Rapid Shot did 130+ in the first combat round in full darkness to a 9th level warforged adamantine fighter tank in the 2nd range increment. 12 attacks at 1d8+6+1d6 fire with x3 crit is a very hard soak. And adding that to the damage he took in the surprise round equaled a dead tank in the first round. All from creatures that he couldn't even see. Why he decided to walk out into the middle of the hallway after the surprise round I will never know.

I think the final final cut is great. The only thing I would choose to change is to remove the wording concerning two weapon defense in the flurry section and add it to the bonus feat listings. It would be just as useful or better than dodge if you are not planning on going down the mobility/spring attack tree.

Also you have the listing for adamantine touch listed in both the ki strike area and as a separate 16th level listing.

I had a group run up against my kobolds in one of their lairs. It was going to be a crazy encounter for them, lots of pain and fear. There were a dozen 1st level kobolds, 6 sorcerers and 6 rogues, in the final trap room. The room was a cylindrical room 20 ft tall with a 15 ft radius. A reinforced oak door barred the exit and a portcullis dropped on the entrance. The top floor of the room had arrow slits every 10 ft around the interior. The sorcerers cast true strike on the rogues every round and the rogues used sneak attacks from the arrow slits.

The only thing that saved the party was a lucky prepped spell. Fog cloud from the druid gave total concealment to the party and gave the tanks time to bash the door down. They still almost got ousted as 6 4th level characters by "a pack of mangy kobolds" as the fighter called then before they walked into that room. But in the players defense 12 CR 1/2s with a APL +2 for the favorable terrain comes out something like a CR 6-8 depending on 3.5 or PF scalings.

I still love to throw low CRs with a sorcerer level at a group. Put a crossbow in hand with a true strike prepped and you can put the fear of the little guy into a player.

Legion42 - the levels when you get feats has changed - we all get feats at 7th level now "7th 53,000 35,000 23,000 4th — " (Table from Classes section of PRD)

Well crap... now I feel like a twit.. hahaha guess I should review the basics again :) thanks guess I looked at the new table and just skimmed it and I've been running Pathfinder since Beta... Now I'll have to read it cover to cover to make sure of the little things.

Taking the feat can be done any time after the stated level dependency. I usually have my players who want it as early as possible to "hold over" their 6th feat for it or just not gain any benefit until 7th.

As for NPC creation it is all DM dependent. I let my players create them using the NPC rules in the Core Book, but I've also assigned them from the pregens in the Game Mastery Guide or used GM created ones. The only real thing to take into consideration is that the NPC is useful to the PC. If the NPC isn't useful then feat is lessened.

As to the Bard Cohort it works wonders. The Bard can provide so many benefits its crazy. CHA based checks, magical healing, access to Arcane spell assists, performance panhandling and spreading Fame through those performances.

Magical healing if where the money is for divine healers, but take that player/character out of a group and see how quickly things get dicey for the rest of the party. I've been in a few play groups that started with no divine casters, or bards for that matter. When over night healing, expensive potions, and risky UMD scroll checks are all you have to work with the Healing Skill becomes enormously important for a low level group. Even with a divine caster the previously mention additional poison/disease save is very useful/necessary before the Remove "x" spells are available.

Using Heal checks in place of Knowledge Anatomy is also very common to identify certain things with injuries and deaths creatures sustain. Noticing that a certain internal organ is missing or certain traces of poisons, i.e. injection sites or discoloring, that helps track or identify the source can move an adventurer towards an unknown enemy with greater knowledge and preparation.

My Best "advice" would be to find a copy of the 3.5 Cityscape book put out by Wizards. It has an amazing level of detail to build communities and for running businesses. I would also suggest using the NPC section from the Game Mastery Guide to populate the village. You may also want to look into having your Cleric take the Leadership feat at 7th or 9th if he wants a more active role in the towns governance. Using his Cohort as high priest of the church or as mayor and his followers as the town experts would be a good way to keep him in touch with the village.

It also has the bonus effect of giving the many adventure hooks along the way to "save" the town for all sorts of dangers. Having humanoid raiding parties, wild animals and political problems affect the community stops it from being just a money sink and makes it important to the player. Also it gives the group a haven to return to. A place to heal and rest free of danger. The traditional retirement keep can easily be modified into the sleepy village.

You might also suggest that he sponsor a village rather that start one from scratch, but that is more story line based. Either way the GM will still have to build it.

1st lvl Kobold Sorcerers with crossbows for the win. True Strike 3 times a day :)

The CR of a Solo monster is kinda relative. If you are having a string of encounters in a single "day" with little or no time to recover spells/ daily abilities then an even encounter is probably best. A good rule of thumb is an equal CR of the Average Party Level (APL) will use 25-30% of a party's resources.

If the party has a reasonable time to recover or only one large encounter is planned a +2 APL CR is going to test the party. It will probably use about 50% of their resources. Just make sure that enemy doesn't have the ability to one shot a single party member. I.E. a Creature/spell that on a standard full attack action that rolls max damage could put a character at full HP into the negatives. Crits and failed saves happen but a standard attack at that level will dishearten the PCs.

If the party is well geared, experienced with their abilities, or if its the final encounter a +3 APL CR usually provides the proper challenge. Be warned this level will use 90% of the party resources and may leave characters in the negatives or dead. Some DM fudging may be necessary to avoid party death if the Players have issues working together or are using their abilities incorrectly/ineffectively. Maybe the creature/Boss will leave the party defeated or they may no longer view the party as a threat.

I find that if the party is "rolling" over +0 APL CRs maxing the HP or modifying the feats of the opponents is sometimes more effective than changing the CR of the encounter.

I tend to use +1 and +2 CR encounters for traveling. Most times when rolling random travel encounters a party will face one every few days. So the recovery is easier and they feel like they accomplished something on the journey. Then I stack -1, +0 and a single +2 CR in dungeons. Having 3-4 -1 APL CRs and 2-3 +0 encounters will net the party close to the same XP as a larger CR and they don't have to leave the dungeon to recover to often. They will use quite a bit of their resources but they won't be dead on their feet to fight the boss.

I reserve +3s for truly big bads or for reoccurring villains.

If the party is heavily geared I feel less bad about sending higher levels of encounters their way. So I tend to up the +s by one level against a heavily geared group. They tend to have ways to get around failing spells and abilities with magical equipment.

I agree with the others. Use the sand box. I would change the analogy a bit though. Think of it as a wire sifter. Dump the whole sandbox through it and see what gets stuck. The only caution I would have is to be sure that you don't bury your party. Grand Melee and Region shattering politics can quickly demoralize your players if they don't think they have the means to overcome them.

The ritual and 24 hr wait time is similar to the companion time limits and the old "Named Outsider" delays for re-summoning. It stops the summoner from getting the extra benefits that the ritual provides, like the overcome protection abilities and the summon time limits. The Death delay is not overcome by the spell as it is the ritual and the Eidolons ability to respond to it that are affected by the death. The Eidolon still died from destruction in the last 24 hrs so it cannot re-form at the strength level that the ritual would require. The spell sacrifices corporeal time and abilities in favor of just having the Eidolon present on the Plane.

The once a day thing is my fault. Miss read it. I guess I'm just opposed to the Eidolon being treated as a "companion" of any kind. To me he's the big guy you call in when things get/will be hairy, not the continual bodyguard type. Play style preference I guess.

it seems kinda cheap, but if the Eidolon has fast healing and you aren't expecting any more encounters for the day summoning it via the spell and letting it heal until the spell ends would work for cheap healing. Rinse and repeat until full HP. of course that is assuming it was killed.

Also, why would you use the 3-6th lvl summon monster spells if your Eidolon is already gone for the day? 2nd level Summon Eidolon is a bigger bang for your beasty buck and you can use the SLA Summon monster for a bigger better longer lasting summon. Plus you can sack a higher spell slot to cast a lesser spell or use meta magics on Summon Eidolon to get even more bang out of it.

Seems to be a lot of win there too.

It states in the APG that any time the Summoner loses consciousness, for any reason i.e.: unconsciousness, falling asleep, magical sleep; or even leaving the same plane, his Eidolon is dismissed. It also states that the Eidolon Ritual can only be performed once per day.

When your summoner is roused for a night encounter, had his Eidolon banished, or has chosen to banish it for what ever reason, if he wants his Eidolon for any reason after this point he must rely on the Summon Eidolon spell.

This makes it very reasonable to have the Augment Summoning Feat.

It is very reasonable to believe that while wandering out in the wilderness that you will wake up, summon your Eidolon, and dismiss him when rest for the night. But if you have multiple encounters, say in a dungeon crawl, and it is dismissed after the 3rd encounter for any reason, how are you going to get it back for the last 2 encounters? Summon Eidolon.

What if you are in an Urban setting and it just isn't reasonable to have your Eidolon wandering around with you. I mean who really wants a Large/Huge creature, or a quadruped in an inn with the rest of the party. Summon Eidolon to the rescue when the inn erupts with assassins that are after the party.

I must say this is an interesting post thread, but the one thing I am noticing is that everyone is bashing the summon Eidolon spell.

I as a player and as a DM have had too many instances of being woken up my one of my watch mates while SLEEPING. Usually when this happens a player has 1-3 rnds, i.e. 18 secs, to decide what to do. That is no where near enough time to preform the ritual for summoning an Eidolon, which is unsummoned/dismissed when the summoner sleeps.

Having a spell that gets me my Eidolon even for a limited time would be a god send for the encounter. how about the situation where you get jumped in an alley or a place your character felt safe in.

Having your Eidolon just walking around town hanging out with you is like having a Druid's 12 point buck just hanging out inside the inn with you. Not going to happen if you are role playing rather than roll playing. And yes you can have the Eidolon hang out where ever you stashed the animal companions, horse and war dogs but then you risk hitting that 100ft barrier.

I am going to place my vote for the racial req for arcane archer firmly in the no column. But having said that I am all in favor for the racial restrictions on PrCs. The whisper knife was great and just let me get a breach gnome underground. I just think that the first set of PrCs should be open to all races, and I see nothing intrinsic to elves in the class features. If you want race specific PrCs wait for the Race enhancement books to arrive.

I agree with Kalyth....
Look at what they did with the Ultimate Magus in the 3.5 Complete Mage. Add a class ability that provides a base CL increase. Say a +1 at 2/6/10? Sure no additional spell levels, but it does change the variable spell effects and the spell DC's.