Travis Hansel's page

Organized Play Member. 11 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Organized Play character.


RSS


TGMaxMaxer wrote:

There are a TON of pre-req feats that do nothing for later feats in a chain. Combat Expertise being an obvious culprit. Using that feat actually makes every other maneuver worse. Same with Power Attack. (since all penalties on attack rolls apply to maneuvers)

Tripping Strike has Imp Trip as a pre-req, and the reason behind it can be anything.

In order to trip, you normally have to sacrifice an attack, in this case you are so good at it that you get to do it for free anytime you land a particularly good strike (crit).

However, as an add-on, it doesn't get its own roll with attendant bonuses, you just trip exactly as well as you crit. Whatever that number is.

In the same manner that I wouldn't expect to add another +6 to my Bullrush total from my shield slam (+4 feats, +2 Dwarven racial sub for stability), I wouldn't expect to add my bonuses from my feats to an add-on trip.

However, if that is the ruling handed down, it just makes my characters better than I thought.

I miss worded that earlier statement. Of the Feats I've read the Prerequisite and subsequent feats have a way of interacting directly with each other, whether it's making a bonus/situation stronger by stacking effects or by mitigating penalties the original incurs.

In the case of Combat Expertise and the Improved/Greater Combat Maneuver Feats:

While using Combat Expertise by taking a -1 penalty to melee attack rolls and combat maneuver rolls you gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC. When your BAB reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, increase the penalty by -1 and bonus by +1.

So by giving up your offense you gain an equal defense.

Now let's use Trip and Bull Rush for my next part. The Improved and Greater forms do 3 things. 1) The modify what happens during the maneuver by first having you not provoke an AoO from the target then later making your target provoke an AoO. 2) Your CMD against the maneuver in increased by +2. 3) You gain a +2 bonus on checks made to Trip/Bull Rush with Improved and an additional +2 with Greater.

So with Improved and Greater we have a bonus to mitigate the penalty from Combat Expertise as well as boons for the offense with a bonus to defense.

It seems like too much of a step backwards to not apply the bonus to the strikes because even without Combat Expertise active the Strikes are already at a disadvantage by having to use your bonuses to hit with your melee attack which, more often than not, is much lower than your CMB.


Manly-man teapot wrote:


2) It says "your confirmation roll". What you have made is a confirmation roll. Improved Trip does not apply to confirmation rolls. It then says "if [this roll which is not a trip CM but a confirmation roll] exceeds your opponent's CMD, [then]". It absolutely does not say "add your trip-specific bonuses", which you have to have in order to take the feat, nor does it say "take you die roll and add a different bonus".

Riddle me this: Why would Improved Trip be a requirement for Tripping Strike if it has nothing to contribute by your above statement?

From all the Feats I've read I've yet to find an example of where the effects/bonuses of a prerequisite Feat are utterly disregarded.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Travis Hansel wrote:
The only chance of it succeeding is by either having Critical Focus or the total +4 from Improved and Greater applying (still needing a nat 20).
For a Crit Build, I would consider a different weapon from Unarmed Strike, which only Threatens on a 20. See if you can't find a Monk Weapon that doesn't have a higher Threat Range. If you take Aesetic Style feats, your Weapon Damage will increase...

Tripping Strike is the only Feat I've looked at for my monk that relies on critting to work and the only reason I've even been looking at it is because it gives a chance to trip without giving up an attack to do so. Plus Improved Critical is one of the Bonus Feats for Monk. The Bonus Feat list for Monk doesn't change for the Of the Sacred Mountain archetype and doesn't offer much for a build whose purpose is to stand in one spot and move as little as possible from there.

The reason I'm gonna stick with unarmed is because I'm debating between Boar Style or Janni Style to round him out and they only work with unarmed strikes.

I started this thread because while I'm planning this character I want to make sure that what I pick will be effective. To do that I need to make sure I'm accounting for all bonuses. If I find that Tripping Strike's success rate in CR13+ encounters (that are not comprised of CR1-5) is abysmal (not the Crit Range but the Crit Conformation exceeding CMD) then I won't bother with it and get something else.


Ok here is the stats for my Monk using Crane Style, Fighting Defensively and Tripping Strike at 13th lvl (he also has Improved and Greater Trip as well as Improved Crit (Unarmed)).

His to hit bonus non flurry is +13/+8 while his Flurry is +15/+15/+10/+10/+5

Let's say he's in a group of 4 with APL being 13 and they're fighting an Iron Golem (AC 28/CMD 39)

Tripping Strike would never work because even with a nat 20 in the first 2 Flurry it'd only be 35 on the conformation. The only chance of it succeeding is by either having Critical Focus or the total +4 from Improved and Greater applying (still needing a nat 20).

Conversely his CMB for Tripping is +21 so he'd only need to roll 18 to succeed.

That's why I'm wondering if Tripping Strike is even worth it against high CR monsters because those that can be tripped by a medium sized creature mostly have CMDs so high that a standard attack roll will never succeed without a ton of bonuses.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I had been thinking that if I built a Pathfinder Tripping character, I would wield a Warhammer in 1 hand and use a Sickle as my Tripping Weapon: I'd be the Soviet Union!

Hah, now I have an image of two players playing burly twins named Hammer and Sickle.

......

Oh god now I'm imagining a campaign/modular that's Batman themed.


Thanks for the feedback so far.

I came up with the question because I'm going to play an Oread Monk of the Sacred Mountain which work best when they start and end the turn in the same place. Because of that and the ability the archetype has that makes them unable to be knocked prone or bull rushed I decided to incorporate Tripping to give him a way of keeping his btb foes from wondering off to easily. Plus it'll mesh well with Crane, Janni, and Boar Styles.


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

My main question is whether the +4 bonus on checks made to trip foes would apply to Tripping Strike.

I ask is because all the descriptions I've read of Improved Trip and Greater Trip never said the +2 was to CMB so that allows a caster to use those feats with Toppling Spell Metamagic (d20+CL+Relevant Cast Stat vs. CMD).

So that has me think the check would go something like this:

Roll 19 for possible Crit then Roll to confirm. After confirming Crit you'd add the +2 or +4 to what the conformation total was to see if you succeed the trip or not.

It seems odd not to apply the bonus because 1) Combat Expertise (which is a prerequisite to all 3) is going to give -2 to melee and CM rolls and 2) the CMB is going to be higher than the To Hit bonus for melee attacks by the time BAB +9 is gained.

Depending on the answer will determine whether I'll bother with Tripping Strike or not.


I both understand and am surprised about the lack of updated Character Sheet for Unchained.

I understand because practically everything in the book is designed to be used in a 'plug&play' of as little or as much as you want. So that causes a large variety of possible sheets.

I'm surprised because the biggest things I'm sure that players in my area will most use that would require a new sheet are the Skill rules and Skill Unlock.


I'm not familiar with Dirty Tactic's Handbook. I'll have to look it up later.

Still not a big fan of using the VMC towards a Priestege that needs caster and melee traits for the facts that you're losing 5 feats and the remaining feats will mostly be used to get melee/combat related feats. Though I could possibly see making a bow/crossbow caster assuming staves/wands will not be easy to obtain.

Time for some experimentation.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Travis Hansel wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:

Variant Multiclassing, p. 88

I may be missing something, but I am not seeing how to handle spell progression when the secondary class is a spellcaster (and the primary class is not).
I don't see where the variant multiclassing rules intersect with spell progression at all. The VMC rules don't give you spellcasting; they can give you a spell-like ability or two, but they specifically cover how to handle such things. Can you give an example of what you're asking?

You're right.

The only one that is mushy is Magus
"Spellstrike: At 11th level, he gains the spellstrike class
feature, but he can use it only with spells that are on the
magus spell list, even though he can cast them using another
class’s spell slots."

So if I was to select Rogue as Primary and Sorcerer as Secondary with the VMC I wouldn't get access to a Sorcerer's Spell per Day/Spells Known/Spell List?

If so then I'll probably rarely use the VMC when building Prestige Class characters such as Arcane Tricksters. With the CB I can get 1st lvl Arcane Trickster by 9th lvl. With VMC (assuming you don't gain Spells per Day/Spells Known from a caster secondary) it would be at least 12th lvl for a Sorcerer Primary with Rouge Secondary plus the first 3 Feats will have to be used to get the basic combat related feats the Rouge starts off with.

VMC does not grant spells nor spell slots nor spells known

Thanks for the conformation. Guess the only time I'll possibly consider using VMC either when I plan on not getting any prestige class lvls or when aiming for a prestige class that doesn't require MCing.


Lord Fyre wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:

Variant Multiclassing, p. 88

I may be missing something, but I am not seeing how to handle spell progression when the secondary class is a spellcaster (and the primary class is not).
I don't see where the variant multiclassing rules intersect with spell progression at all. The VMC rules don't give you spellcasting; they can give you a spell-like ability or two, but they specifically cover how to handle such things. Can you give an example of what you're asking?

You're right.

The only one that is mushy is Magus
"Spellstrike: At 11th level, he gains the spellstrike class
feature, but he can use it only with spells that are on the
magus spell list, even though he can cast them using another
class’s spell slots."

So if I was to select Rogue as Primary and Sorcerer as Secondary with the VMC I wouldn't get access to a Sorcerer's Spell per Day/Spells Known/Spell List?

If so then I'll probably rarely use the VMC when building Prestige Class characters such as Arcane Tricksters. With the CB I can get 1st lvl Arcane Trickster by 9th lvl. With VMC (assuming you don't gain Spells per Day/Spells Known from a caster secondary) it would be at least 12th lvl for a Sorcerer Primary with Rouge Secondary plus the first 3 Feats will have to be used to get the basic combat related feats the Rouge starts off with.