Tignous "Tig" Nio's page

You may continue to fight over it until it gets answered. The NPC Codex is riddled with errors (like Animal Companions gaining iterative Bite attacks), and is a big reason why I am critical of the Scarred Wanderer as an example.

But, yes, it is something that's in print, so it's better than nothing.

Bah, well that's good to know. But hey at least an example in print, like you said. But it doesn't seem to have changed from the old 3.5 FAQ entry and it at least supports the argument. So I feel pretty comfortable about it until we get official word otherwise.

I admit I didn't read all of the post but it's not like you can "glue" spikes onto a shield. The shield is either made with or without spikes from start. That's why I believe that Spiked Shield of Bashing would multi differently than a Shield of Bashing. The spikes are part of said shield.

It has to be added during the creation process, correct?

Two reasons that rule doesn't apply.

I'd like to reiterate a statement I made in the other thread about the Shillelagh spell. This spell states that a druid's club or quarterstaff deals 2d6 damage if medium and 3d6 if large. There is also the Scarred Wanderer which uses a Heavy Spiked Shield of Bashing and is listed as dealing 2d6 damage.

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **...

Thank you so much for citing the Scarred Wanderer from the NPC Codex! It proves, at least until we get official word otherwise. That Bashing and Shields spikes do indeed stack. We have been fighting over this in my games for awhile now.

All I seem to find is mixed messages when it comes to this item. I would humbly ask that this could possibly make it into the FAQ and finally put the issue to rest. It's come up in more than a couple games so far I would really like to see closure on the matter.

What damage does a spiked shield do with bashing?
Do they not stack? or do they?

--------------------------------------
Here is the FAQ on 3.5 on the matter. There is no FAQ entry for spiked shields and shield bash on the pathfinder FAQ.
--------------------------------------
The description of the magical bashing property for shields says it can be added only to light or heavy shields.
Does this exclude shields with shield spikes? That is, can
you have a +2 spiked light shield of bashing?
You can add the bashing property to a spiked shield. If you
do, the damage dealt by the shield bash increases from normal
by 3 steps (2 for the bashing property and 1 for the shield
spikes), and the weapon becomes a martial piercing weapon.
The example +1 spiked light shield of bashing,if made for a
Medium character, would deal 1d8 points of piercing damage
from the bash. (Normally a light shield bash deals 1d3 points of
damage, but the spikes improve that to 1d4 and the bashing
enhancement increases that to 1d8.)

Citation http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a 3.5 FAQ page 51

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END 3.5 FAQ.
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Pathfinder Descriptions

Shield, Heavy; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy shield is so heavy that you can't use your shield hand for anything else.
Wooden or Steel: Wooden and steel shields offer the same basic protection, though they respond differently to spells and effects.

Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield. See “shield, heavy” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

Shield Spikes: These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

Both are listed as weapons on page 152. The word turn seems to read as a modifier. as a shield is already a weapon. It also says Shield spikes Increase the shield bash damage. It isn't listed as independent from a shield?

Bashing: A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.

Can we get some clarification on how it works in Pathfinder?

Thanks-a-million in advance!
-Tig

^ Cheating is bad, don't do it mmmmkay! mmmkay!

Hypothetically speaking, let's say they did limit the grandfathering amount to 1 active tiefling and aasimar in Pathfinder Society.

1. How would anyone track and enforce a limited grandfathered amount of aasimars and tieflings at a table?
2. I have more than a couple active aasimars and tieflings well over 1xp and over a year old. Would this force me to retire them? How would that be fair if so?

Seth Gipson wrote:

To quote the Blog post itself, specifically, "The exception is any aasimar or tielfing character with at least 1 XP; these characters are grandfathered into the campaign."

The blog post says in very plain English that the character must be an aasimar or tiefling prior to the cut-off date.

Preston Hudson wrote:

...The blog post states that a Tiefling or Aasimar must have 1 xp...

There are other people who have 'quoted' the blog directly, but these two seem to have added the same word to the original text.

Blog wrote:

Does this mean you can create several new characters, play a scenario with each, and have several native outsiders waiting for when you need them? Well, we debated long and hard whether to require 4 XP per character, as at that point one is past the free rebuilding stage. However, we also recognized this as unnecessarily punitive to casual players who may only be able to play once or twice in the next month. To answer your question, yes, you can make 10 aasimars and play The Confirmation an equal number of times, but we're trusting you'll exercise some good taste and respect a decision made with the larger community in mind.

My emphasis. '10 aasimars' is not '10 aasimars and 10 tieflings.' Either the choice is limited to aasimars only (per the second bolded statement) or any 'new character' played before the deadline (per the first bolded).

I am not trying to make an argument one way or the other, but trying to remind folks to check the source. Especially if you plan to split hairs.

[/grammar nazi]

Exactly, I'm not going to argue one way or the other either. The way it was written leads me to believe 1 XP is the rule. The paragraph below is an example.

I found my answer. Thanks Freesword!

A Heavy shield is already a martial, bludgeoning weapon.

Shield Spikes modify the damage of the shield bash to piercing and increase the damage size. it's an "extra" that modifies a shield bash. It can however be enchanted as a magic weapon in its own right.

Masterwork shield will never give an bonus on attack rolls when used as a weapon.

20 Heavy Steel Shield
10 Shield Spikes
------
30 Heavy Spiked shield
1000 Mithril

So the total cost of a Mithral Spiked Shield should be 1030gp.

Thanks for the replies.

Masterwork Armor

Just as with weapons, you can purchase or craft masterwork versions of armor or shields. Such a well-made item functions like the normal version, except that its armor check penalty is lessened by 1.

A masterwork suit of armor or shield costs an extra 150 gp over and above the normal cost for that type of armor or shield.

The masterwork quality of a suit of armor or shield never provides a bonus on attack or damage rolls, even if the armor or shield is used as a weapon.

All magic armors and shields are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality.

You can't add the masterwork quality to armor or a shield after it is created; it must be crafted as a masterwork item.

I might have found my answer.

The masterwork quality of a shield never provides a bonus on attack or damage rolls, even if the shield is used as a weapon

both are listed on the weapons table

Shield, heavy special 1d3 1d4 ×2 — special B —
Spiked shield, heavy special 1d4 1d6 ×2 — special P —

leads me to believe it's a modifier...

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2jxof did some digging and found this thread. So is it a modifier or a separate weapon?

Thanks for Chiming in!

So they are separate? The only reason I question it was because the descriptions are misleading if so. Armor spikes says the spikes count as a martial weapon. Shield Spikes says the spikes turns the shield into a weapon and it does the same thing as a shield bash but one damage category bigger.

Shield Spikes: These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

Armor Spikes: You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see “spiked armor” on Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes' effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.

Special Materials:
Weapons and armor can be crafted using materials that have innate special properties. If you make a suit of armor or a weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material. However, you can build a double weapon with each head made of a different special material.

Shields: Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses. Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a shield bash. The bashing special ability, however, does grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls (see the special ability description).

A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.

Shield: As with armor, special abilities built into the shield add to the market value in the form of additions to the bonus of the shield, although they do not improve AC. A shield cannot have an effective bonus (enhancement plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A shield with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.

Hopefully, someone can clear this up for me. I cannot find a clear answer anywhere. @_@

So what is the total cost of a mithral spiked shield? Can they be made from a different material than the actual shield? I recall in 3.5 they could, but the wording in pathfinder has me puzzled. It says Shield Spikes TURN a shield into a martial weapon. It does mention the enchantments for the spikes and the shield itself are different. But nothing about the material.

Shield, heavy steel: 20 gp 15 lbs.
Shield spikes: +10 gp +5 lbs.
Mithral Costs:
Shield +1,000 gp
Other items +500 gp/lb.

Shield Spikes: These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

So let's look at armor spikes,

You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see “spiked armor” on Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes' effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.

So armor spikes are added to armor. So they can be made out of different materials and priced separately, thus my confusion.

One concern I have with Studied Strike is the metagame.

It's by far the most useful if you know how many HP your opponent has. It's possible to track how much damage your party has dealt and NPCs are often built with average HPs, but you can't know how many HP an NPC has without metagaming. Either you know what their bestiary entry says or you can figure out how many HD they have based on their observed abilities and guess how their stat array and stat bumps are distributed.

To be useful to non-metagamers I think Studied Strike needs the investigator to also have an in character way to access this information, and to not be a horrible pain in the abacus like 3.5 power attack it needs to give current HP not max HP.

Really this is something that should have been in the CRB from day one under probably sense motive and profession soldier since the power word spells have similar metagaming requirements.

I really like that idea.

Maybe something like this

You could use points of inspiration or follow the paladins smite progression to limit uses per day.

Studied Strike (Ex):
At 2nd level, an investigator can
choose to make a studied strike against the target of his
studied combat As a swift action, the Investigator chooses one target within sight. The Investigator adds her Intelligence bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her Investigator level to all damage rolls made against the target of her studied strike. The damage of studied strike is precision
damage and is not multiplied on a critical hit; creatures
that are immune to sneak attack are also immune to
studied strike.
If the investigator’s attack used a weapon that deals
nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed
strike), he may choose to have the additional damage
from studied strike be nonlethal damage instead of
lethal damage. If the investigator chose to make an attack
with a lethal weapon instead do nonlethal damage (with
the usual –4 penalty), the studied strike damage may also
deal nonlethal damage.
The investigator must be able to see the target well
enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach
such a spot. An investigator cannot use studied strike
against a creature with concealment.

I'm pretty sure this has been mentioned before... but what if we changed studied strike to act more like a paladin's smite. You could spend a point of inspiration for a Int mod to hit and investigator using level for damage. Of course it wouldn't have any alignment requirements, combat advantage or bypass DR. You could grant the ability at level 2 or 3.

Tignous "Tig" Nio wrote:

Would my morality with this knowledge be in question?

If morality in the real world followed the mechanical rules for alignment in the game system, then yes. It probably would.

For the record, I don't think "poison is evil" is a good reason for investigators to not have it as a base ability. I think the alignment system has some wonky bits, and I don't think there's a good justification for all poison use to be "evil" even within that system.

My main reason for believing that poison use should be shuffled into an archetype or turned into an optional choice via the trait/discovery system is that there are so few cinematic or literary examples of investigator/detective type characters using poisonous weapons, and most of the ones that do exist are either villains or heroic subversions or inversions of the trope. It seems like a big stretch to make this a base ability, but a reasonable inclusion to make it an optional one.

Great points,

Tignous "Tig" Nio wrote:

Morality is based on alignment.

Except in a fantasy game when using Poison can be considered to be a morality violation despite one's alignment. Let me quote the PRD:

PRD wrote:

Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth)

Emphasis added.

As I beieve I stated, Poison Use might be appropriate for evil Investigators.

Quote:

Sherlock Holmes is a character not a class.

The character is a partial template for the class. So Sherlock's skill sets and motivation are the basis for the class.

And I and others have said, lack of Poison Use doesn't affect his investigative abilities in that area.

I disagree.

for example,
I'm a programmer, I ethically hack my own websites. Yet don't hack any site I have not been commissioned to by the owner to exploit weaknesses. If I was a character in a fantasy game. would my morality with this knowledge be in question?

I always thought a paladin adheres to a code which is far more strict than simply being lawful, good.

First of all, I think it speaks very well of the Investigator class as written that the biggest argument about it is whether or not Poison Use fits thematically.

MMCJawa wrote:

I actually think the best way of dealing with this might be just offering some new poisons that can function as sedatives, truth serums, etc.

We actually have these. Blue Whinnis is a sedative. Truth serum = Wisdom damage (ie lowering Will saves). That's what poisons *are* in Pathfinder.

Poison Use is several things. It is not accidentally poisoning yourself when using a poisoned weapon. It is also not accidentally poisoning yourself when applying that poison -- either to the weapon *or* to its delivery device. So if you are poisoning food, pouring chloroform onto a handkerchief, or setting a poison needle trap, the GM is perfectly within their rights to have you make a skill check where a roll of '1' means that you have poisoned yourself.

And Poison Use is also, in PFS, the ability to acquire Poison in the first place.

I maintain that Spies and Secret Agents (and evil Masterminds such as Moriarty) are also fully covered by the flavor of the Investigator, so that Poison Use fits perfectly well thematically. But YMMV.

I agree completely.

Tignous "Tig" Nio wrote:

But surely a modern day chemist would know how to properly and thus improperly handle chemicals though right?

This is a good analogy to work with.

A modern day chemist with a PHD has experience handling chemicals in a lab setting without killing themselves (usually).

Likewise, any character with ranks in the proper skill could reasonably deal with poison in a general setting without accidentally drinking it (usually).

But if armed men break into the modern day chemist's lab, and the stressed out chemist decides to quickly apply *insert caustic chemical here* to the end of a stick and use it to fend off his attackers ... will his education and lab experience help him as much? Is there a (perhaps small) percentage chance that he'll accidentally expose himself in his haste to defend himself?

Likewise, anyone can apply poison to a weapon without Poison Use. But properly applying that poison to the right part of the weapon and then handling it in such a way as it won't accidentally get wiped off before it's time to use it leaves a (very small) risk of accidental exposure.

Characters that have the Poison Use special ability are experienced and trained in that specific activity (applying poison to weapons to be used in combat). The assassin handed a vial of poison and told to stab the King doesn't have to know what the poison is, how it works, or how it's made. He just needs the steady hand and experience and mindfulness to put the right amount in the right spot and hold it in the right way afterward.

Different skill sets.

Okay I'll grant you that. But then there is a detective side too. Knowing exactly how criminals think, recreating the scenario exactly as it occurred. I feel that would give the experience necessary to cover the "experience" needed to gain poison use. Is it really that far fetched for the class?

Tignous "Tig" Nio wrote:

So why exactly do most of you feel poisons are out of place? To me it makes complete sense. When I think of a investigator I think of someone sent out to gather information on crimes or missions. This person would likely be a expert at identifying and using poisons. Dealing with murder weapons, and making assumptions on the spot of what exactly transpired.

The Poison Use class ability covers using poisoned melee weapons in combat. Full stop.

The Poison Use class ability does not help you identify poisons. It does not help you drop poison into someone's drink, inject it via syringe, mix it into food, or fill a room with poisonous gas. It does not help you handle a murder weapon. It does not help you with forensic investigation. It does not help you create a poison, or manipulate a poison, or refine a poison.

It only covers poison applied to a weapon to be used in combat. Which is the sort of thing investigators investigate, not the sort of thing they do themselves.

You're right about the check.

But surely a modern day chemist would know how to properly and thus improperly handle chemicals though right?

Tignous "Tig" Nio wrote:

So why exactly do most of you feel poisons are out of place? To me it makes complete sense. When I think of a investigator I think of someone sent out to gather information on crimes or missions. This person would likely be a expert at identifying and using poisons. Dealing with murder weapons, and making assumptions on the spot of what exactly transpired.

That being said, I don't think it adds much to the class mechanically. If you ask me that should be expanded.

Because you don't need Poison Use to do any of those things. You just need it to safely apply poison to your weapons. Otherwise, you will be making Heal checks to determine if someone was poisoned and whatnot.

Its a question of flavor, and I don't feel that the investigator stabbing enemies with poisoned weapons is really all the in line. It works for an Assassin, and it works for a Rogue (who doesn't actually get the dang ability)

I have this same issue with sneak attack, and would prefer something like Exploit Weakness, even though that is technically a much weaker ability (maybe it could scale to add +int to damage at level 10 or something)

Fair point,

However, I feel that if a character knows enough to create extracts that would manipulate the anatomy of a character. Not knowing how to handle poisons properly seems a bit silly to me. Like a graphic designer not knowing how to use the brush tool in a art program.

Since 1st Edition, poison use has always been considering morally suspect if not evil. Sherlock Homes may have been a drug addict and an expert chemist, but he did not use poisons to gain an advantage over his adversaries. I don't recall his (but maybe he did) using chloroform to drug guards so he could search a room.

Morality is based on alignment. Sherlock Holmes is a character not a class.

The class doesn't have any alignment restriction. I'm no Sherlock home expert. Holmes did perform a lot of experiments on the dog in the movie. Which would suggest poison use and administration.

I disagree that a forensic scientist would be an expert in using/administering poisons. Identifying? Yes, and I should think that that would be covered by a Knowledge Nature or Craft Alchemy skill.

I think the other problem is that "Poison Use" is associated with using poisons in combat. Again, poison use is generally viewed as evil and dishonorable. It's not in the theme of literary investigators. It would be appropriate for evil investigators. Call them Interrogators.

So when we look at why it's there, it seems like a mechanical add-on to compensate for lack of raw damage.

I disagree see above.

So why exactly do most of you feel poisons are out of place? To me it makes complete sense. When I think of a investigator I think of someone sent out to gather information on crimes or missions. This person would likely be a expert at identifying and using poisons. Dealing with murder weapons, and making assumptions on the spot of what exactly transpired.

That being said, I don't think it adds much to the class mechanically. If you ask me that should be expanded.

1. Are you available to play during the weekends? Yes.
2. What VTTs are you familiar with? Maptools, but I'm open to trying anything.
3. What is your most consistently available time slot? anytime aside from mondays and anytime after 5:00pm mountain time on weekdays. Weekends completely open.
4. Can you consistently make a bi-monthly meetup? Yeah.
5. Are you willing to GM? (GMing not required) In the future I might be up for it.