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Jaynay27 wrote:
So correct me if I am wrong (I am a little late to the party here).
If I purchase this book through Paizo (I am an AP Subscriber) now, I just get the hard-cover with no PDF or interactive maps (these would have to be purchased separately presumably)?
And I would have had these included had I originally *pre-ordered* through Paizo direct?
I originally had a pre-order with Amazon, but because of their release date shenanigans, I decided to cancel and order through here (with the book having now been released).
Well - that presents a problem - If I don't get the extra inclusions, then I may as well be patient and order through Amazon when it becomes available (and learn my lesson for next time, it seems).
If this is true it is also a bit disappointing as I use a fair amount of technology in my game and having the PDF version helps with printing and scaling battle-maps for actual play. This is also part of the reason I began an AP subscription as having the hard copy and soft copy both available is invaluable to me.
I know I wouldn't have received the PDF if I just stuck with my Amazon order from the start, but I also wouldn't have paid $60 for the book.
I could justify paying the $60 here if the PDF was also included, but not just for the hard-cover by itself.
I know Paizo tries to do right by their customers and produces quality products from what I have seen so far, but this just seems a bit harsh, charging a customer twice for the same product, albeit in different formats.
Agreed and agreed. I would have bought this, but not in this case. So unfortunately Paizo wont get any money out of me for this one. Not paying twice for Hard-copy and PDF. (Perhaps if the PDF were significantly cheaper). Only reasons I subscribe is to get both versions otherwise I would order from Amazon or similar stores. In this case I think I will simply have to give this a skip as its not worth buying even from those stores as I still don't have a PDF version.
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All in all the the TOS version is pretty "meh". (As are the rest of the TOS classes.) It does not really capture the concept of a swashbuckler, but rather tries to merge rogue and fighter into one, thus creating an akward unbalanced character at best. To date I have seen no 3rd party product that has captured the essense of what Paizo does with their core classes.
Perhaps it may be easier to create what you are looking for by creating an archtype for either the fighter or rogue, depending on what flavor you prefer more.
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Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
I have a player who really wants to play a half dragon (one of the good oriental dragons) when we start the Brinewall Legacy.
So he would be way above the power level of the other PC's even if I start them at 2nd. {We usually start at 2nd just to help survivability and just give half xps until caught up.}
What I was think is having him inflicted with a bestow curse, the -4 to rolls variety. He doesn't know where it is from, but he has been told he has to help Ameiko to get rid of it. It has a high caster level check so no one local has a decent chance of getting rid of it.
When he gets to the swamp it drops to a -3.
When he heads off with the caravan it drops to a -2.
When he enters the castle it becomes a -1.
The spirit thing in with the seal removes the last of it when recovered.
Does this seem reasonable?
I just started a new campaign where a player really wanted to play a powerful race. So what I did to keep things simple, was identify all the unbalancing powers and split them off into racial feats that the player could select instead of normal feats. So she started her character with more or less the same types of racial abilities as the other players, but then added her special powers by spending her feats on them instead. So you could do something like make natural attacks, and breath weapon a feat. You can also create feat trees, so perhaps improved natural attacks as another feat if the original attacks were too powerful, or energy resistance and improved energy resistance, etc. – thus allowing him or her to grow into her power as your characters all level up.
This allows the racial powers to weighed up in a choice between choosing the cool combat feat vs. the racial power. Does she choose it this level, or wait a few more levels, or ignore it all together? She is 3rd level now and has found that she does not really want all the powers of the race, so she simply did not choose them. Sometimes the cool factor of playing a “half dragon” is more important than all the powers they get.
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PhineasGage wrote:
Any recomendations for an easy way to buff baddies on the fly?
I'm having the problem of my PCs being a little overpowered based on their attributes. We've always used 4d6 drop the low die, and the night we rolled stats it seemed like everyone was on fire. Multiple 18s, nothing below 10 or 12...they pretty much roll over any baddie (at least at these low levels) who was built using 15 point buy in mind...and I think the lack of challenge is making things a little dullish for them.
A simple way is to use the "+2" golden rule to your bad guys. Assuming your players stats are way above average they probably have ability that are 4 to 6 points (if not more) higher than average. This means that their ability modifiers give at least a “+2” bonus more than the average monster or bad guy. (E.g. a strong fighter NPC with average stats has Str 14 (+2 to hit and damage), while your PC has 18 (+4 to hit and damage)) So a quick and simple way is to simply add +2 to your bad guys’ rolls (and perhaps an extra 2 hp per hit die). That should allow them to last a little longer in a fight and deal a little more damage. You need not to that will all the bad guys, maybe just the lead or main guy in a fight. Of course you can increase this bonus to +3 or +4 for really tough guys or reduce it to +1 for others. The same thing bonus can be used for everything, including spell DCs, save DCs etc. the nice thing about this is that if you see it suddenly going out of whack and punishing the PCs you simply drop it, or (even have the next blow drop the bad guy). Quick, simple, no wasted hours restating bad guys.
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Max Money wrote:
So I have a question; what do you want a new non-caster to be able to do? There are only so many ways to kill a critter without spells really.
There could be 100+ ideas that would lend themselves for good non-spellcasters… Especially if stick to the concept that new classes are variations of the primary 4. (if we just looking at existing 3.5 material there are many to choose from, e.g. Noble, Expert type class ala Master from Dragonlance, Gladiator type, sailor or mariner type, cavalier/knight, warlord, marshal, assassin core class, marksman, etc.)
This concept of spells and magic being the default is exactly one of the fundamental flaws in 3.5. It’s also silly when you think that 80% to 90% of the core fantasy worlds should be non spellcasters, but 80% to 90% of the class concepts are all spellcasters. IMO spells and spellcasters are just so common that it’s lost its kewl-factor.
I think it would be brilliant if we saw more non-spellcasting classes introduced in the future. We have far too many options for spellcasters already. To reverse the argument, what is there that wizard cannot do? Why do we need so many spell casters when simply selecting the correct feats and spells allows for a completely new concept? If we can create so many variation spellcasters we can do the same for non-casters.
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Chris_Johnston wrote:
I'm not a big fan of tier ratings, mostly because they're irrelevent in the context of the game. There are only two tiers that actually matter: classes that can contribute, and classes that can't. In 3.5, spellcasters were in the first, nonspellcasters were in the second. While Pathfinder has helped shore up the difference a little, by and large the classes have remained pretty much the same relative to each other.
Agreed. – Has always been the biggest problem in this regard, by WOTC own confession too (when chatting about the changes to 4E). Even PF seems to struggle with this. Out of the 6 new classes in the future Advanced PHB, 5 of them appear to be spellcasters…
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Sean K Reynolds wrote:
What they don't have is a written mechanism for comparing two monster PC's and ensuring that they are both 'balanced'...
...You don’t need to use level adjustment.
Level adjustment is in the game only so that all the PCs can be at the same power level....
How did you ever come up with that original mechanic? According the 3.5 rules a character of X level is considered a X level CR. So a 2nd level fighter or cleric is a CR 2. Now one of our players recruited a blink dog as his cohort. In 3.5 it was a CR 2 monster. It had 4HD monster with a +2 level adjustment, making it a level 6 PC equivalent. So according to the CR rules a level 6 characters should make it a CR 6 monster, but it clearly is a CR 2 monster. How then did you justify that a CR 2 blink dog is even remotely equivalent to a 6th level PC human cohort.
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seekerofshadowlight wrote:
And the rules wotc used where wonky and did not really work at all. They were a half hearted kinda but not really working fix. All it did was work to reinforce core only without coming out and saying it
I never said their rules weren't wonky. On the contrary, the little Paizo has printed on the subject is already a vast improvement. The point was those wonky rules did not stop them from printing standard adventures just like Paizo is.
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James Jacobs wrote:
Because, on one level, it's a difficult problem. But more importantly, the game WE want to publish adventues and supplements for has players playing the core races. We can build a world and adventures based on the assumptions that all players will be starting at a basic ground level of power, game rules-wise, and from a society that is interactive and at peace. Once we start having to account for the possibility of monstrous PCs, suddenly building adventures and settings becomes exponentially more complex. We can't have an adventure in a city without spending an unfortunate amount of time explaining how the city's inhabitants react to things like lizardfolk or goblins in their midst. We can't place treasure in adventures without worrying about whether or not the players will have the fingers to wear the rings or the feet to wear the boots... or indeed the hands to use treasure to begin with. And lots of monsters come with things like invisibility, flight, water breathing, and other abilities that can render adventures of lower levels cakewalks.
Interesting argument. WOTC had those rules in their books, yet the majority of their published campaigns and adventures generally followed the same status quo as pathfinder supplements without the need for "...fingers to wear the rings or the feet to wear the boots..." explanations and adjustments. Heck I even remember Dungeon adventures published by Paizo using those same rules not and worrying about those issues either...
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Kirth Gersen wrote:
Both, but mostly for me it's the fact that spells pretty much negate all challenges except combat. Survive ocean voyage to the lost jungle island? No need; just teleport in. Hack through the jungle and deal with the superstitious natives to find the ruined city? No need, just find the path to it. Explore the ruined city, once you find it, braving the clever deathtraps? No need; just wind walk to the end. Need to find a way to cross the Chasm of Doom? No, you don't; just fly over it.
Spoiler:
In addition to combat, the game is all about exploration and interacting with the environment and with other people. Spells take all that away, leaving only combat. So all that puts rogues right out of the picture; they're now obsolete. That leaves the warriors and the casters. And it also makes for a wonky situation in which super-powerful antagonists, while logically rarer than wimpier ones, are actually far more common.
Now let's look at those antagonists. At higher levels, they're often demons and other critters with high mobility, or else super-high hp, or both. Warriors cannot move AND fight; even the Vital Strike chain doesn't come close to addressing that. Casters can always move AND cast though, and at higher levels they have quickened spells, so they can move AND cast AND cast again, while the warriors can either move OR fight. Also, casters have spells AND items to address additional mobility; warriors have magic items only (made by casters, BTW).
In combat, spell power increases geometrically, to keep up with monster power. Feat power doesn't really improve at all, except linearly in long chains. So hit point increases at high HD quickly begin to outstrip damage potential, but save bonuses increase more slowly, so that direct damage goes from inefficient to just wasting time -- if it takes 5 rounds of full attacking a critter to kill it, it's eaten the whole party by then, or...
Far too true! This is one of the biggest issues I have with 3.5. Challengig parties with mid to high level spell casters is almost impossible unless the GM is prepared to either put in heaps of work, or just get plain silly. This was something I really was hoping would be fixed with the new Pathfinder rules but alas all we got was more of the same...
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Clark Peterson wrote:
4. Just couldn’t resist the backstory, could ya? I don’t know how many times a perfectly good item was mucked up with a two or three sentence intro about how “item X was first created by [name of NPC] who had [insert problem], and blah blah blah.” Not fatal, but it shows horrid lack of restraint as a writer. Just design a good item. Wondrous items don’t have that stuff. Artifacts do. Usually not fatal, but it’s a red flag.
Interesting comment – I suppose that’s where term “different strokes for different folks” would be app. With all the myriad of magical items that litter the pages of countless d20 supplements out there, the items with a back story or a “lore” entry are the ones I find most appealing. They add flavor, turning the mundane and numerous into something special and worth dropping into a campaign – something that could possibly inspire an entirely new story or adventure. In a way, they do their bit in making a make believe world seem somehow a little more “real”.
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Hi All
With the ongoing debate about fighters and are the good enough or do they need tweaking I thought I would post some of the home-grown feats we are testing/using in our campaign. These feats are inspired by various sources, including but not limited to the “stunning fist” feats usually used by monks as well as the thought that certain arbitrarily feats like “weapon focus” should provide tangible benefits. These feats are that they are available to all classes, but fighters can gain some of them quicker and in some cases can do more with them. Then building on that, they allow for warrior type classes to do more in combat than merely defend the spell casters so he can disable or deal devastating damage. So in essence they allow warriors, especially fighters, to be more warrior-like and less reliant on buffs, but the powerful ones have limits to how often they can be used, just like spells or stunning fist feats. Your thoughts and opinions would be most welcome, as well as some play tests outside of my group.
Spoiler:
Dazing Blow
Your blows leave their targets reeling.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +3.
Benefit: You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Dazing Blow forces a foe damaged by the weapon in which you have Weapon Focus to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Str modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is dazed for 1 round. You may attempt a dazing attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be dazed.
Special: A fighter may select Dazing Blow as one of his fighter bonus feats and may do so at 1st level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A fighter who selects this feat may attempt a dazing attack a number of times per day equal to her fighter level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than fighter.
Improved Dazing Blow
Your dazing blows are more difficult to resist.
Prerequisites: Str 15, Weapon Focus, Dazing Blow, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: The DC of to resist your Dazing Blows (and related feats) is increased by 2.
Special: A fighter may select Improved Dazing Blow as one of his fighter a bonus feats.
Stunning Blow
Your blows are so hard they can stun your foes.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Dazing Blow, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Blow forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Str modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next action). Each attempt to stun an opponent counts as one of your uses of the Dazing Blow feat for the day. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.
Special: A fighter may select Stunning Blow as one of his fighter bonus feats and may do so at 2nd level, as long as he has Dazing Blow, (he does not need to meet the other prerequisites).
Extra Dazing
You gain extra dazing attacks.
Prerequisites: Dazing Blow, base attack bonus +2.
Benefit: You gain the ability to make three extra dazing attacks (or special attacks that count against your use of dazing blow) per day.
Solid Blow
You fill your attacks with extra vigor.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, Dazing Blow, base attack bonus +2.
Benefit: Declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a missed attack roll ruins the attempt). You deal an extra 1d6 points of damage when you make a successful attack with the weapon with which you have the weapon focus. Each attempt counts as one of your uses of the Dazing Blow feat for the day. The damage dealt by Solid Blow increases as your Base Attack increases, so at +6 you deal an additional 2d6 points of damage, an additional 3d6 at +11 and an additional 4d6 at +16.
Special: A fighter may select this as one of his bonus feats.
Furious Attack
The rush of combat causes you to pack an extra punch into your blows.
Prerequisites: Con 13, Str 13, Dazing Blow, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: As a swift action, you can expend one of your uses of the Dazing Blow feat to fill yourself with adrenaline and the sheer joy of combat. For the rest of your turn, you gain an extra 1d6 points damage on your attacks made with the weapon with which you have weapon focus. When you select this feat, you gain an additional daily use of Dazing Blow. The Damage from Furious Attack stacks with that of Solid Blow.
Special: A fighter can select Furious Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats. A fighter with the Dazing Blow feat can select Furious Attack as his bonus feat at 4th level, as long as he has Weapon Focus even if he does not meet the base attack prerequisites.
Dizzying Blow
Your dazing blows leave opponents filling dizzied.
Prerequisites: Str 15, Dazing Blow, base attack bonus +2.
Benefit: Victims of a successful dazing attack are left feeling dizzy and are sickened for 1 round following the round they are dazed. Creatures that are immune to dazing attacks are also immune to the effect of this feat, as are any creatures that are more than one size category larger than the feat user.
Special: A fighter may select Dizzying Blow as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Nauseating Blow
Your dazing blows leave opponents filling nauseated.
Prerequisites: Str 15, Dizzying Blow, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Victims of a successful dazing attack are subject to disorientation that they are nauseated for 1 round following the round they are dazed and then sickened in the subsequent round. Creatures that are immune to dazing attacks are also immune to the effect of this feat, as are any creatures that are more than one size category larger than the feat user.
Special: A fighter may select Nauseating Blow as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Painful Blow
You cause such severe pain with dazing attacks that even larger creatures are affetcted.
Prerequisites: Str 15, Dazing Blow, Dizzying Blow or Nauseating Blow, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can now affect creatures that are one size greater than you with your Dizzying blow and nauseating blow.
Special: A fighter may select Dizzying Blow as one of his fighter bonus feats
Lingering Blow
You cause intense pain in an opponent with a successful dazing attack.
Prerequisites: Str 15, Dazing Blow, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: The effects of a successful dazing (or stunning) blows are increased by one round for a total of 2 rounds.
Special: A fighter may select Lingering Blow as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Halting Blow [/b]
You can hit a humanoid so hard that the blow knocks it unconscious.
Prerequisites: Str 17, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Dazing Blow, base attack bonus +10.
Benefit: Declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a missed attack roll ruins the attempt). Against a humanoid opponent, you can make an attack with your specialized weapon that has a chance of paralyzing your target. If your attack is successful, your target must attempt a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Str modifier). If the target fails this saving throw, it is rendered unconscious for a number of rounds equal to your Strength bonus. Each attempt to render an opponent unconscious in this way, counts as one of your uses of the Dazing Blow feat for the day. Creatures immune to stunning cannot be knocked unconscious in this manner.
Special: A fighter may select Halting Blow as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Frenzy of Blows
You can use your dazing attacks in rapid succession.
Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus, Dazing Attack, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You may use one additional dazing attack (or other special attack that counts against your daily limit of dazing attacks) per round.
Normal: You may only attempt a dazing attack (or any other special attack that counts against your daily limit of dazing attacks) once per round.
Special: A fighter may select Frenzy of Blows as one of his fighter bonus feats. A character can take this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.
Accurate Blow
You use accuracy rather than brute force to daze your opponents.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse.
Benefit: You may use your Dexterity instead of your Strength for the purposes of determining Dazing Blow saves and related effects as well as for the purposes of qualifying for related feats that require Dazing Blow and a high Strength score as a prerequisite.
Special: A fighter may select this as one of his bonus feats.
Debilitating Blow
You can temporarily weaken an opponent with your weapon focused strike.
Prerequisites: Str 17, Weapon Focus, Dazing Blow, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: Declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a missed attack roll ruins the attempt). When you successfully strike an opponent with a weapon in which you have Weapon Focus with you can force the opponent to make a fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Str modifier) or suffer a -4 penalty to the it’s Strength score for a number of rounds equal to your Strength bonus. Multiple Debilitating Blows delivered on the same target are not cumulative but do reset the number of rounds the penalty lasts for. Each attempt to deliver a Debilitating Blow counts as one of your Dazing Blow attacks for the day. Creatures with immunity to daze or stun effects cannot be affected by this feat. If you use this feat with a weapon that you have Greater Weapon Focus the penalty dealt increases to -6.
Special: A fighter may select Debilitating Blow as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Crippling Blow
You can temporarily slow an opponent with your weapon focused strike.
Prerequisites: Str 17, Weapon Focus, Dazing Blow, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: Declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a missed attack roll ruins the attempt). When you successfully strike an opponent with a weapon in which you have Weapon Focus with you can force the opponent to make a fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Str modifier) or suffer a -4 penalty to the it’s Dexterity score for a number of rounds equal to your Strength bonus. Multiple Crippling Blows delivered on the same target are not cumulative but do reset the number of rounds the penalty lasts for. Each attempt to deliver a Crippling Blow counts as one of your Dazing Blow attacks for the day. Creatures with immunity to daze or stun effects cannot be affected by this feat. If you use this feat with a weapon that you have Greater Weapon Focus the penalty dealt increases to -6.
Special: A fighter may select Crippling Blow as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Furious Counterstrike
The rush of battle makes you deadly to those who would dare strike you.
Prerequisites: Con 13, Str 13, Combat Reflexes, Dazing Blow, Furious Attack, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: As an immediate action, you can expend one of your uses of the Dazing Blow to make a counter attack against any creature that strikes you with a melee at your highest attack bonus. This benefit lasts until the start of your next turn. No creature can be struck more than once per round with this feat.
Special: A fighter can select Furious Counterstrike as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Improved Furious Counterstrike
You gain more furious counterstrikes.
Prerequisites: Con 13, Str 15, Combat Reflexes, Dazing Blow, Furious Attack, Furious Counterstrike, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +12.
Benefit: When using your Furious Counterstrike feat you can now make an additional attack against the same foe that strikes you, but a -5 penalty. For example; if a 12th-level fighter (with a base attack of +12, +7 and +2), where struck in combat he could activate his Furious Counterstrike feat to make a counter attack at +12. If he were to be struck a second time by the same foe he could make another attack +7.
Special: A fighter can select Furious Counterstrike as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Greater Furious Counterstrike
Few opponents could strike you more than once and live to tell the tale.
Prerequisites: Con 15, Str 15, Combat Reflexes, Dazing Blow, Furious Attack, Furious Counterstrike, Improved Furious Counterstrike, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +12.
Benefit: You can make a third attack against any opponent that hits you three successive times in one, albeit at a -10 penalty, when using your Furious Counterstrike feat.
Special: A fighter can select Furious Counterstrike as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Dazing Shot
Your ranged attacks are more deadly.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Str 13, Dazing Blow, Weapon Focus, Point Blank Shot, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: You can use your dazing blow (and related feats) with a ranged weapon so long as you have Weapon focus with that weapon and the attack qualifies for the point blank shot bonus (i.e. it must be within 30 feet).
Special: A fighter can select Dazing Shots one of his fighter bonus feats. A fighter with the Dazing Blow feat can select Dazing hot as his bonus feat at 2nd level feat; as long as he possesses the Point Blank Shot and appropriate Weapon Focus feats (other prerequisites can be ignored). A ranger with the Dazing Blow feat can select Dazing shot as his bonus feat at 2nd level feat; as long as he possesses the Point Blank Shot and a base attack of +2 (other prerequisites can be ignored).
Blasting Shot
You focus your aim into a devastating attack.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Str 13, Dazing Blow, Dazing Shot, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: By using a move action to aim, you can expend two daily uses of your Dazing Blow feat to make a deadly ranged attack. You must be using the weapon in which you have weapon focus and the target must be within point blank range, (i.e. 30 ft) to use this feat. Furthermore, you must declare before hand that you are using this feat, (thus, a missed attack roll ruins the attempt). If the attack succeeds your attack deals extra damage equal to 3d6 points + your Dex modifier. When you take this feat, you gain an additional daily use of Dazing Blow.
Special: A fighter can select Blasting Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats. A ranger with the Dazing Blow feat can select Blasting Shot as her bonus feat at 6th level, as long as she possesses the Dazing Shot feat and a base attack bonus of +6 (other prerequisites can be ignored).
Solid Skin
You can to ignore minor injuries.
Prerequisites: Con 15, Dazing Blow, Solid Blow, base attack bonus +10.
Benefit: As a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, you can expend one daily use of your Dazing Blow feat to provide yourself with damage reduction of 5/- until the start of your next turn.
Rebounding Strike
Your strikes rebound to keep your foes harried.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus.
Benefit: When fighting with a melee weapon that you have weapon focus with, you can make one additional attack per round provided you hit at least once in the round. You must use the full attack action to use this feat. This extra attack is made at the base attack bonus of the highest attack that hit. For example a 6th level fighter has a +6 and +1 base attack bonus. If he missed with his +6 attack and hit with his +1 attack, he could make an additional attack at +1.
Special: A fighter may select Rebounding Blow as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Pressing Attack
You can follow up on a particularly powerful attack with another attack before your opponent recovers from the previous one.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Combat Reflexes, Rebounding Strike, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: If you score a critical hit with a weapon you have weapon focus, you can immediately make an additional attack against the same opponent, using the same attack bonus that you used for the critical hit roll. For example, Tarinor the 11th-level fighter can make three attacks in a round, at base attack bonuses of +11, +6, and +1. If he scores a critical hit on his second attack, he can make an additional attack using his +6 base attack bonus. He then makes the third attack (at +1) as normal for a total of four attacks in that round (+11, +6, +6, +1).
Special: A fighter may select Pressing Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Improved Pressing Attack
Your follow up attacks are even more accurate.
Prerequisites: Str 15, Combat Reflexes, Pressing Attack, Rebounding Strike, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +11
Benefit: This feat functions in the same way as the Pressing attack except that you can now use your highest base attack for the additional attack. For example, Tarinor the 11th-level fighter can make three attacks in a round, at base attack bonuses of +11, +6, and +1. If he scores a critical hit on his second attack and has the Improved Pressing Attack, he can make an additional attack using his +11 base attack bonus. He then makes the third attack (at +1) as normal for a total of four attacks in that round (+11, +11, +6, +1). This additional attack stacks with Rebounding strike. You must be using the weapon with which you have greater weapon focus to gain the benefit of this feat.
Special: A fighter may select Improved Pressing Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Leaping Attack
You leap into battle, landing with a powerful blow.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Jump 4 ranks, Weapon Focus, Spring Attack
Benefit: When fighting with a weapon in which you have weapon focus and using the charge action, you deal an extra 2d6 points of damage with your attack.
Splitting Strike
You are practiced at overcoming damage reduction.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Str 13, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus on damage rolls when you make an attack with a weapon you have Greater Weapon Focus with against an opponent whose damage reduction is effective against your attacks. This feat’s benefit does not apply against a target if its damage reduction does not apply to your attacks. For example, if you were wielding a magical weapon you do not gain the bonus on damage rolls against a foe whose damage reduction is overcome with magic weapons.
Special: A fighter can select Splitting Strike as one of his fighter bonus feats.
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Pendagast wrote:
What I think is strange, is why would a wizard make a wizard killing sword? That'd be like me selling a wand of pendagast slaying....doesn't actually seem like anyone would DO this without a really really really good reason, and then if I was the wizard, Id make it have a limited duration, charges or something so it was pretty much useless when the OTHER wizard was defeated.
But you always see mage slaying swords etc, (caramon in dragon lance had one)
just a thought.
One could always argue that a cleric or other spell caster made the mage slaying swords... eitherway a spellcaster had to make the weapon for the non spellcaster...
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Matthew Hooper wrote:
I think the primary problem here is that the "sweet spot" - the point where the respective classes fire on all cylinders and do what you want the to - for the fighter and wizard are very different. Fighters excel at low levels; wizards excel at high levels.
Too true.
Matthew Hooper wrote:
How this translates out to "wizards roe, fighters suck" is beyond me; from my experience, there are a lot more low-level than high-level campaigns I tend to play my games starting at 1st level, like you're supposed to, and work your way up. Go figure.
Personally I much prefer low level campaigns to high level ones. But in truth my campaigns actually take years in of real time to complete and tend to be quite epic, meaning my players grow from level 1 to 20+ over several 5 or 6 years. In my current game the average character is 10th level and we have been playing the same campaign since 2003. But I also prefer low magic campaigns, so I suppose PF and 3.5 is not really the best RPG for that as being able to pop into your local 7-11 and stock up potions, +5 flaming swords and bags of holding is par for the course in these systems.
So my players that don't have all the “normal” magical gear do tend to be hard pressed against a spell caster or two, and killing a dragon isn’t really something that happens before breakfast, which is the way we like it. Things tend to have a more epic feel. Most of the characters have estates and keeps of their own, with followers and cohorts and business and such, affiliations to guilds and princes and dukes and so forth. So when when Mr. dragon moves in, its not a quick lets swing by and slay him on our way to lunch, its more a matter of evacuate the peasents, rally the armies, call in any favors from any neighboring baron and count, appeal to your lord Duke and liege for further assitance and then carefully contemplate your plan of attack... Ok, maybe its not as bad as that, but you get my meaning.
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Texicutioner wrote:
Along the lines of the last couple of posts. The wizard has to be prepared, but to be a high level fighter you don't, either the fighter is better than the wizard on a day to day basis or give those 4 fighter credit for being prepared. Arrows of silence, or Mage bane arrows, or poison, lord knows a wizard should fail a fort save and numbers say one of them will beat the wizards initiative then game on even playing field.
Agreed, but in this particular case arrows were not really a threat to this wizard. However my key concern with this that technically those fighters that have the magebane arrows or arrows of silence still need a wizard or spell caster of some sort to make those weapons for them somewhere along the line. I would like to see some fighter abilities that don’t rely on the fighter to have shares in the local mageware shop.
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Pendagast wrote:
so 4 15th level fighters are all going to be within the same area of effect at the same time?
Doubt they got to that level by doing that. Just like army rangers huddling together so a hand grenade can get them all.....
Yes that’s right, these warriors were having high tea, all huddled together swapping recipes while discussing the latest Barbie DVD when the mean evil wizard jumped them all and with a wave of his magic wand made the poor little soldiers loose all their strength and dex... how silly of me to make that mistake.
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Pendagast wrote:
ID beg to differ that a core 10th level wizzard with core spells can wipe the floor with even four fighters his own level, if the fighters are played intelligently.
Perhaps, and perhaps not. I still believe a prepared wizard – and all wizards of high level should be somewhat prepared – is deadly. But I will admit that the case that came closest to proving my point was with a 10th level wizard that did have a non core prestige class and non core spells, but that is actually my point. The power spiral will always be there and part of the fun of playing d20 and 3.X and PF and all the other derivatives is being able to pick and choose stuff from other books and material. Heck, Paizo themselves need to release such material if they intend to stay in business and part of their aim is to make PF backwards compatible so you can still use your hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of other d20 and 3.5 material. (I have two ceiling high bookshelves full of the stuff and have every intention of making it three if Paizo can pull this off.)
But the point really is as long as there are splat books there will continue to be power spirals with better classes, spells, feats, magic items and so forth. Which means that same core class wizard now has access to spells never thought of before, and he can chop and change as he needs, where the fighter still has his same feats he did when you first created him, with maybe only a few that are new and uber cool, compared to the twenty new uber cool spells the wizard has in his spell book. So suddenly this 10th level wizard has a 4th level spell that has an area affect and medium range that reduces strength and dexterity to 0 and requires a Will save (the fighter’s weak save) to negate. (Yes this spell does exist – my player used it well). Suddenly those 4 fighters don’t seem so threatening… and that’s just one of his non core spells.
Of course as GMs we could ban such spells and similar powers from the game, but where is the fun in that. More so, I don’t really enjoy spending thousands of dollars on books only to ban my players from using what’s in them, (even more so when those new spells, magic items and what nots are from the campaign setting). So in short, if a spell caster’s spells are what tips them towards the sides of gods in the balance war, then do the same for the fighter (and inadvertently for the other fighter types). Give them stacks more cool and new and powerful combat feats and manoeuvres to choose from, (and then possibly allow them to pick and choose some of these anew each day as part of their “one hour training session each morning”, just like a wizard or cleric picks and chooses their spells for the day.)
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that hobo wrote:
I wholeheartedly agree. This man speaks the truth. In all of my games, the fighters are always prominent at lower levels (but some mages can manage to keep pace under the PF rules), but are less powerful at high levels. However, no matter how much people around these forums groan and complain about fighters lacking power at high levels, they stay right on par with Wizards in my experience, only tapering off...
Not sure my group would agree with you. Any wizard of high level that is "on par" with a fighter of equal level is not being played properly. Give me a 10th level wizard and I'll wipe the floor with four 15th level fighters...
That in itself is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, magic is meant to be... well magic after. Any self respecting wizard that can't defend himself against fighter types is not really a self respecting wizard. A good spell caster can and should be able to do almost anything and everything with his magic, and should have very little to fear from a fighter type.
The problem is that when you bring this to the game table in a d20 type game, every other person and his uncle's cat is some sort of spell caster and even the 1st level farmer has his +1 hoe of soil turning; which is where the balance does fall away. Heck in the new PF the fighter is the only character class that does not have any magical abilities. Even the rogue and barbarian can now get spell like or supernatural abilities. If these worlds boast so much magic, then why haven't the oldest tradition of core class, (i.e. fighters), developed super human techniques to combat all these hundreds of spellcasters and all the magical meanies that plague the world? If your 15th or 20th level fighter is meant to represent the fighters of legend, (like the Conans and so forth of fantasy literature), who at their prime, even powerful sorcerers feared, then the class as it stands, even PF, does not quite cut it.
In the end it boils down to the type of game you want to play. I would personally rather see the fighter stay more or less as he is, (with perhaps one or two more options like additional feats or combat manoeuvres and some flexibility to allow players to change those options so that they don’t get bored or regret their previous options or can adapt to different situations – not unlike most spell casters.) Then rather create more feats or optional class features to be taken in lieu of feats that can be made available by the GM depending on the world and game style. So in a game where wizards and sorcerers are a dime a dozen, then these feats should allow fighters to shrug off or deflect spells and can break through magical barriers with a swipe of his trusted old faithful sword that his had since he was twelve. In campaigns where magic is rare and one single wizard can rule an entire country because his magic gives him such an advantage, then these feats are simply not available and a 10th level wizard can wipe the floor with four 15th level fighters.
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Some ideas from the fighter I use in our campaign:
• More feats (so gets to pick new stuff every level)
• Adaptive feats (or wild card feats) starting at 3rd level and progressing every 4 after that. (Adaptive feats get can be assigned more quickly at higher levels. Finally at 18th level he can reassign them every encounter as apposed to every day.)
• Starting at 1st level the ability to spend an hour training every morning with a new weapon to refocus his weapon specific onto a new ones, (e.g. weapon focus (longsword) and improved critical (longsword) to weapon focus (battleaxe) and improved critical (battleaxe))
• 4 skill points per level and some additional fighter like skills added to class list such as heal and spot. (That said I allow characters to choose any skills as class skills at the point of creation – this allows for more diverse backgrounds and characters. Fighters growing up in the wild would have skills, like survival, handle animal, ride, knowledge nature, while those in the city might know slight of hand, hide, open lock and so forth – we do this as we do not use the current PF skill system).
• At 4th level and every 2 levels thereafter the fighter may learn new feats in place of old ones. (Thus avoiding being stuck with weak feats and making room for more powerful ones, and also alleviating boredom with being stuck with the same old stuff every level from level 1).
• More versatile weapons and armour training (now called offensive and defensive training) allowing for fighter’s that don’t want to be tanks but perhaps more swashbuckling types.
• Added physical training. Every 4 levels, the fighter can increase one physical stat (e.g. con, str, or dex) by +1 representing their constant training and physical fitness.
• Scoured the tons of d20 books for alternate class features that can be taken instead of fighter feats and added one or two of my own – like focused strike, that allows fighter to drop additional attacks for more damage at reduced accuracy. E.g. combine all three attacks with your longsword for 3d8 (+Str, etc.) damage at a -10 penalty to hit or combine two for 2d8 (+Str, etc) for -5 to attack.
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I also allow the Shield bonus to Reflex saves. (It makes sense from the fact that a reflex save means you move out of harms the way, but the reality is that your rogue who evades the dragons breath does not actually move. So bringing a shield up to shield against it makes sense.) I also allow characters to use shields for cover when not attacking. Then lastly a shield gives a free parry action, allowing the wielder to make one apposed attack roll using the shield bonus to deflect on physical melee attack per round. Feats and such improve this.
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I have to agree with some the general comments of this tread. There have been too many changes making the backwards compatibility not really that easy. Then to add insult to injury, some of the key reasons for those changes have still not really been addressed, (e.g. spell casters still overshadow non spell casters, characters still need a gazillion magic items to be affective at high levels, making an NPC or monster that lasts only 3 rounds in combat still takes 6 hours, most class features are still fairly boring or limited, etc)
However to be fare, what I have been doing is taking some rules here and there and rejected others all together, (that said, even those that I have taken from PF have not really be adequate on their own and I have had to tweak them a bit to suite our campaign tastes.)
But the very fact that many people seem to being doing that suggests that the “pafthfinder rules” should be handled more like an Unearthed Arcana supplement, allowing you to pick and choose those rules/changes that you want and reject the others. So when moving towards backwards compatibility it is easy to do something like picking a new pathfinder version of a class and/or race, but ignoring combat maneuvers and keeping the old feats or spells. In the end it reads like another d20 supplement. In campaign X, I use this version of class, that version of spells, this version of feats and so on. I think at the end of the day what adds more value than anything else is options. More options within classes and races themselves, more options within feats, more options within spells, more options in rules like HP or AC or Skills. So in the end, choose the options you want and ignore the others. That after all was what one of the d20’s key strengths was and is.
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Paul Watson wrote:
Secondly, I can be fairly sure that you won't get a brand new fighter class because the designer has said you won't in several different threads where far more modest changes than the ones proposed here have been rejected as too much. If you want fancy powers, wait till the feats chapter gets reviewed and...
One could argue that revamping (or remaking) a character class goes a lot further to making sure the rules are backwards compatible (and easily assimilated into all the other d20 supplements that exist). More so it keeps life more simple than if we keep trying to tweak feats just for the fighter. When we start tweaking feats and adding "extra boosts" for fighter feats, we need to have some form of rules that allow us to do that for all the hundreds of feats that exist in the myriads of other d20 supplements that exist. Otherwise we cripple the fighter yet again by forcing him to only get benefit from the 30 feats as apposed to 300 possible fighter feats he could take from other supplements. It’s like saying a sorcerer can learn and cast all these hundreds of spells from every supplement in print – thus making for a myriad of potential sorcerer options, but then telling him he looses all his bloodline abilities if he casts spells from any other book but the revised core. Never mind the headache as a GM of trying recall extra feat boosts and if you used it or not, and for which NPC, does class X qualify for this feat boost because its also gets a fighter bonus feat, but technically is not a fighter and so we go on…
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In our campaigns we allow the shield to provide one free parry a round. (i.e. make an apposed attack roll with the shield to fend off the attack that would hit.) Fighters get to add their armor bonus to this roll. Might not seem like much but it adds up and makes a shield worth having.
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Werecorpse wrote:
IMO the armor training bonus and weapon training bonus have moved fighters too far ahead of rangers and paladins in melee combat ability. I recently had a discussion with one of my more analytical players who effectively said he would be happy to play a ranger or paladin if they had about 80% the melee capability of a fighter due to their other fruit but that they are so far below the fighter now that to play one in the belief that you were playing a fighter type character was just being delusional.
We did an 11th level fighter with greatsword against 3 11th level rangers with longsword and shortsword in straight melee fight - it was close but the fighter won -- if two 11th level rangers cant beat an 11th level fighter it is too much.
I dont have to deal with Barbarians so I cannot comment on them.
Did the rangers get to use their animal companions and other special "rangerish" abilities such as spells or favoured enemy/terrain advantage in the fight? A ranger is not meant to be able to go toe to toe with a fighter, the fighter is meant to be the better fighter. Afterall, isn't that they are called fighters?
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Some interesting posts and all of them seem to have some essence of truth to them. The bottom line is this post would not exist (along with so many other threads along the same topic) if the fighter wasn’t missing that something extra it needs.
Personally I embraced its perceived weakness and made it the class core strength. Namely its “genericness”. To me being generic speaks of versatility. So I took that to the next level. I gave the fighter slightly more options and the ability to exercise those options. Some ideas I used:
• a simple increase to 4 skill points,
• the ability to change feats every 2nd level
• the ability to spend time training each day to refocus his weapon specific feats onto a new weapon of choice
• an adaptive feat slot every few levels that can be changed daily (and at higher levels multiple times a day). i.e. they can “spontaneously” fill that feat slot with any fighter/combat feat they require when they require it.
• finally I added some extra minor options that can be taken in lieu of the weapon or armor training or bonus feats so that you can build even more options such as dodge bonuses and skill bonuses for swashbuckler types, or physical training options that improve physical stats, or the ability to combine multiple attacks into one solid blow (i.e. 3d8 damage as apposed to 1d8) by sacrificing accuracy.
Personally though I find the fighter was not the only class that suffered from blandness, but it was the easiest to tweak. All martial characters could do with some more options and maybe some increased access in abilities. Non spell casting variants of paladin and ranger with some decent non spell casting abilities would be a great thing too! (Don’t quite remember any legendry rangers or paladins in any of the classics, whipping out spells in the middle of combat – or perhaps I’m just not reading the right novels).
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We are currently play testing the pathfinder fighter with the following additions.
• Adaptive feats: Fighter gains 4 adaptive feats over his 20 levels. Adaptive feats can be changed once a day by spending a standard action. E.g. the fighter may take combat expertise on day one and then decide to change it to power attack on day 2.
• Weapon aptitude: The fighter can spend an hour training every day to refocus his feats onto a different weapon. So weapon focus (longword) and improved critical (longsword) could become weapon focus (battleaxe) and improved critical (battleaxe)
• Optional amour proficiencies. Not all fighters are tanks. At first level fighters can choose to drop one, two or all three of their armor proficiencies (light, medium, heavy) and replace them with either other weapon feats like exotic weapons, defensive feats like dodge, or skill feats like Persuasive.
• 4 skill points – however I let all classes choose what class skills they will have upon creation. In the fighter’s case the fighter can choose any 2 knowledge skills plus 8 other additional skills (including knowledge skills) to be class skills.
• Defensive training– this replaces armor training and allows the fighter to choose between armor training as per pathfinder or a dodge bonus. This allows for non tanks to also be protected.
• Weapon training as normal.
• Battle points (inspired by barbarian) – fighter gains his level in battle points every encounter to be used (at this stage) to either gain: an extra attack, a bonus to a save or DR. Or to be added towards countering maneuver drawbacks as per the Book of Iron Might as we use that supplement in our campaign. We need to see if this is too much as a “per encounter” and if it needs to become “per day” with perhaps slightly more points.
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Paul Watson wrote:
This is a completely unthought through and certainly not tested in any way. In fact, it's still barely coherent, but that's never stopped me before, and it won't now
What do people think of the option of giving Fighters "Combat Points" similar to the Barbarians rage points. These could power things like enhanced feats (such as allow Dodge to work on two opponents), to get feats temporarily (spend combat points to gain improved disarm when you really need it) or to do impressive things or suppress the rules temporarily, such as allowing two combat feats to be used in one round.
Obviously this will need a colossal amount of work to be of actual use (how many points do you get per level, how much does each ability cost, just what can you do with these things any way, and I'm sure a dozen other complications), but it would allow Fighters to do cool things like the other classes without making them overpowered, although it would make them slightly more complicated to run.
Any thoughts on this vague idea?
Now that's exactly what I am talking about. I think that would be a brilliant idea.
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Ridolfin wrote:
Tarinor wrote:
Exactly - the wizard was creative - that's the whole point.
And what about your four 15th level fighters ? They can be also a little bit much that stupid cows ?
** spoiler omitted **
It was not my intention to bait you but just to point out that, depending of a lot of parameters, and yes, also of the DM will and experience, a wizard is not always a super super hero and a fighter a super super lamer. And even when playing the 3.5 core rules (I don't care of prestige classes here).
Let's roll the thread.
Be creative
Firstly there are a so many spells a wizard could use to counter that picture you just painted in your spoiler and truth be told any wizard that allows himself to become a pin cushion shouldn't really make it past apprentice.
But this post is about the opinions of changes to the fighter. I gave mine, you gave yours. So let's write the rest of to different styles as the picture you painted is a perfect example of the style of game my group steers clear from.
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Ridolfin wrote:
This type of things never happened to me in years of play. IMHO a Wizard is almost a Dead man walking when left alone in a battleground of its level and with no option to flee. A well equipped band of fighters was the fate of many arcanists in our stories.
For sure in a one to one arena combat you can imagine a lot of trouble for the fighter in a mano a mano with a wizard. But, really, is a wizard coming in a gladiator circus something serious outside of the WoW plane ? ;-))
SOOOO, about the topic: Fighter are cool and powerfull enough to my taste. I will even certainly nerfed them with house rules if I come to the point to use PFRPG. Problems is not fighter indeed but that 10 feats from levelling - I prefer 5, to keep it short.
Be creative
Exactly - the wizard was creative - that's the whole point. If spell casters in other campaigns cant pull this type of feat off then I question if they are truly playing spell casters to their full potential. That’s the whole point of magic!
Give me a high level spell caster of any type and I'll take on just about anything you can throw at me and get out of or around any situation. At the end of the day, you can be as creative as you want with a fighter, but all it takes is one failed Will save.
But that is not the point. Of course this not an every day occurrence and was a forced situation as it was a plot element that created this “magical arena” forcing the wizard to prove himself in order to get the next clue in the a personal sub quest. This player knows his wizard. He has been playing him for over 4 years. So I would expect him to be able to pull off a stunt like that.
But the issue is not that the fighters were so easy to beat. It’s that they are boring to play with limited options. If a barbarian can choose different things to do every round with his rage power, why cant a fighter also have more options. After all, its options that allowed the wizard to do what he did. If it was a 10th level fighter and not a wizard that was facing off against 4x 15th level fighters the outcome would have been very different.
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I like bloodlines idea but the sorcerer needs something more. It would be great if they could have their own spell lists but that is far too much work. Perhaps skills, spells and spellcasting power and effects could be more closely tied into bloodlines than a bloodline simply giving additional powers.
e.g. Perhaps a bloodline could determine or allow things like:
• Additional class skills based on bloodline
• keep bonus feats (and suggest guidelines for adding more from other sources)
• additional bonus known spells based on bloodline (with feats allowing you to acquire more)
• specific types or schools of spells that are cast at higher level, e.g. +1 per 5 levels for fire spells for red dragon bloodline
• Then instead of the powers being fixed (and sometimes making them look like freaks – why have dragon claws, especially when bloodline is 27+ generations old?) rather let them “activate” the power using spell slots
• Remove the need for spell components all together – you don’t see dragons pulling out grains of sand and flinging them at people (perhaps additional spell slots, hit points or xp can be used to pay for expensive spells or simply remove those spells from the sorcerer list)
• If you going to keep familiars, make it take on a template linked to the bloodline and perhaps grow in power as the sorcerer does
• Allow them to do more with their spell slots like perhaps use higher level slots to cast two lower level related spells but with opposite effect spells, like fireball and flame shield using a 7th, 8th or 9th level slot.
• Perhaps they could sacrifice spell slots for metamagic feats independently, so cast your maximized fireball using a 3rd level slot for the fireball and a 4th level slot for the feat
Another idea would be to make them completely spontaneous. Perhaps they can try to cast (or mimic) any spell that they have seen, heard of or could imagine based on a spellcraft roll. DC 15 or 20 plus twice spell level. And then perhaps they could even critical fumble or succeed on spells cast this way giving them extra benefits or draw backs depending on the success or failure.
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That battle with the 10th level wizard vs. 4x 15th level fighters was with this revised fighter and the old wizard. (I don’t feel that the wizard needs too much more tweaking, especially with such a large volume of spells and feats to choose from). In the end the extra damage and amour protection were useless in that battle. One spell to conceal the wizard, one spell to summon an undead to bypass armor, another to cause fear, one to paralyze and another to dominate and the fighters’ lousy saves did the rest. The wizard's versatility won the day.
But of course we haven’t really played that version of fighter for an entire campaign. But in the end extra protection and more damage doesn’t make him any more versatile when compared to a rogue or spell casters.
The fighter we are using now is that fighter plus:
• 4 skill points and 2 extra skills and he/she can refocus her feats like weapon focus or improved critical onto a new weapon every morning by spending and hour training.
• I allow all classes to choose any class skill they want. So if you want to play a fighter who grew up in the woods, you can choose more woodland skills, or fighter who grew up in the streets can have more stealth skills, or a fighter at court could have more charisma based skills.
• In addition the fighter has 1 wild feat +1 per five levels that he/she can retrain or swap out every morning during this training time for something new.
• I also allow combat maneuvers and stunts from the book of Iron Might or Quintessential Fighter to be used… but those are not really being used as they are too much of an effort for the player to work out at this point.
This fighter is being played along side a warblade, wizard, cleric and revised bard so it will be interesting to see how he fairs over the next few levels.
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Perhaps bardic knowledge could work along the lines of all knowledge skills go up at the cost of 1 point. I.e. the bard only needs to invest 1 point in 1 knowledge skill and all knowledge skills go up by one rank.
Or if that is too much, perhaps for every one point he spends he can buy 2 or 3 or 4 ranks in a knowledge skill.
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I like where the fighter is going but it still a boring and inferior class compared to the rest. Lets be honest non spell casters are simply outclassed by the spell casters and have far fewer options available to them, the fighter being the worst of the lot. Spell casters, especially at high levels can be good at anything they want. The sheer volumes of spells available to them make them the best thieves, best spies, best fighters, best healers, best controllers, best defenders, best information gathers, best charmers… whatever the need there is a spell that can meet that need. I think the fact the paladins and rangers have to have spells to make them more viable proves this case even more. I mean when was the last time you saw Aragon cast a spell?
The other day the 10th wizard in my group, who was severely weakened and down to about 1/3 of his spells ended up in a situation where he was forced to take on four 15th level fighters on his own. He mopped the floor with them in about 5 rounds and he didn’t even use any “boom” spells.
So I think things like better fighting and defense abilities and 4 skill points are a good start but not enough. I would go far as to add Spot and Listen as class skills as well. I mean fighters are all about military and doing things like protecting and guarding people and things, yet they can’t even spot or listen out for sneaks and would be thieves… heck even a merchant (supposedly inferior NPC expert class) is better a noticing thieves and could himself sneak right past the very people he has hired to guard his goods.
Then let’s not forget that fighters are meant to be war leaders and generals. Kings in the days of old were fighters who used to wisely rule their people and lead them into battle. Battles are won on wisdom and out smarting your opponents. Wars are won on the same and more, requiring you have loyal followers who will follow to hell and back. Yet fighters have no such skills or abilities. Imagine William Wallace without the ability to inspire his mean with rousing speeches, or out smart the English with ingenious battle tactics and tricks. With that in mind even 4 skill points a level starts looking bleak, especially if you want to choose wisdom or charisma based skills.
So I would suggest looking at something like the warblade as a guideline. The warblade gains access to fighter only abilities, gets bonus feats like a fighter, gets other “fighting bonuses”, has 4 skill points per level, d12 HP, he can “relearn” his weapon specific feats every day, not limiting his use of weapon feats the +1 longsword he picked up 17 levels ago and rounds off with having fantastic combat stances and maneuvers that he can swap out every few levels.
Now a fighter could use his fighter feats to learn combat maneuvers and stances of his own, but the feat limits maneuvers learnt to a maximum of 3 and besides that he would need 17 feats just to learn the same maneuvers and stances a warblade has, never mind all the other bonus feats and fighting class talents a warblade gets. Clearly the warblade with all these benefits and choice of different maneuvers round by round is simply just more fun to play than the fighter whose majority feats are static and stagnant at higher levels.
