Takamori's page

Hmm. I could give her one more level and make a rogue 10/shadowdancer 3 for HIPS, darkvision, and a shadow companion (as well as uncanny dodge if it was lost for Scout). Then with Crippling Strike, purple worm poison, and the shadow's attacks, legitimate amounts of str damage and flanking could occur.

I do also like the idea of a sniper lurking in the woods...maybe a vishkanya rogue with sleep venom?

Psion-Psycho, can you ready an attack that occurs BEFORE the surprise round starts? Wouldn't that attack take place IN the surprise round? I admit I'm not an expert on how surprise round works...

Disable Device to screw with things inside the inn is a great idea.

If he's going to feed them, what's preventing him from adding a little 'extra' something in their food?

I thought about this a little and I guess she wouldn't want to make anyone visibly ill and rouse their suspicions too early on, but something with less obvious side effects or delayed onset time could definitely find its way into their food.

Nicos, I thought I couldn't have Poisoner and Scout at the same time but I see that I can. Thanks for the idea.

I drew this up as a Human for argument's sake, but technically I'm using a Changeling (from Eberron, with +2 to stat of choice). She and the mute half-orc Fighter (who actually has more int and wis than she does and a pretty cool backstory) are members of a group of assassins that were hired to kill the PCs as they got closer to unravelling a conspiracy involving an antipaladin and the fate of nations etc. etc. The half-orc might be quietly sitting in a chair by the fire with the hood of his cloak up while the PCs have dinner. Maybe a couple of squishy mooks?

They also have a diviner buddy who won't actually be at the fight this time...his job is more to find the marks.

The inn is relatively quiet. It's a roadside inn in the middle of nowhere that gets business from travellers between the PC's home town and a larger city. They've stopped at this inn before, so they know this innkeeper (who is also the cook) and his young daughter (who normally waits tables and manages horses) moderately well. I do plan on roleplaying it out and giving them a Perception check to notice that the daughter (who's always around) is not around, and also a Sense Motive against the Disguise and Bluff checks of the Changeling Rogue (though with Deceitful and Minor Shape Change, her Bluff check is +21 and her Disguise check is +29). After the inn burns down, assuming they win the encounter (whether or not the "innkeeper" manages to flee...I haven't actually worked out an escape plan yet, but the two assassins will realise quickly that it's not working out for them and flee after taking a bit of damage), if they search through the burnt timbers and rubble, they'll be able to find a charred metal chest containing the recognizable remains of the innkeeper and his daughter.

My image for this encounter is basically the PCs waking up in a burning building, stumbling to put their armor on and grab their gear while inhaling smoke and possibly taking burn damage while not knowing WTF is going on, then stumbling outside to see the half-orc fighter waiting for them with his greatsword drawn and a grim look on his face. Then, as they come outside, the first person through the door takes a short sword to the liver and looks over to see the innkeeper whom they trusted all these years pull the blade out with a faint, sadistic smile on 'his' face...

The only problem with wands, I suppose, is that the minimum cost for a Wand of Vampiric Touch that does 2d6 damage (5th-level caster) is 11,500 gp, and a 12th-level NPC should only have 16,350 gp worth of equipment in total, so that leaves very little for things like armor, weapons, and poisons (which, despite being reduced to 1/3 by Craft (alchemy), are quite expensive).

The minimum cost for a Wand of Touch of Slime is 21,000 gp, more than I can theoretically spend on the entire NPC.

LOL stealing the spellcaster's component pouch is certainly one of the more amusing ideas I've heard in a long time.

I'm actually interested in both questions: how to build an encounter where this Rogue shines, but also how to build a better Rogue in general.

So I'm trying to build a Rogue enemy for a level 12 party. Despite the threat title, she's not technically a BBEG, but I want it to be a memorable encounter from which the Rogue has at least a chance of escaping to torment the PCs again.

Here are the restrictions:
15-point buy
Straight dex rogue (no greataxe etc.)
Straight rogue levels

The PCs will be returning from what they think is the end of their adventure, weary and triumphant, and they'll need to stop at a certain inn along the way. I plan to have her kill the innkeeper, pose as him, then set the inn on fire when the PCs go to sleep and wait out front with her fighter buddy. She could theoretically toss a couple flasks of inhalation poison into the main room of the inn so they'd have to run through it on their way out. Or would she be better off just trying to sneak into their rooms and CDG them one by one?

This is what I've come up with so far:

NE human rogue (poisoner) 12

hp 87 (12d8 + 24 con + 6 favored class)
Fort +6, Ref +13, Will +7

10 str, 20 dex, 14 con, 11 int, 12 wis, 10 cha

Feats & Talents
1st: Improved Initiative, Shadow Strike
2nd: Finesse Rogue
3rd: Iron Will
4th: Resilience
5th: Dodge
6th: Minor Magic (Ghost Sound)
7th: Combat Reflexes
8th: Major Magic (Vanish)
9th: Deceitful
10th: Opportunist
11th: Extra Rogue Talent (Crippling Strike)
12th: Deadly Cocktail, Lasting Poison (6 favored class)

She'll have a level 12 two-handed intelligence fighter (piledriver + greater trip) to fight alongside for flanking purposes. Her weapon will have deathblade and purple worm poison (each at a -2 DC) that will last for 2 hits. If she hits the same PC twice, duration of each poison will be extended to 9 rounds.

Vanish can be used to find cover/reapply poison to her weapon or just to run away. Rings of protection and mind shielding (since she'll be posing as an ally to the PCs for some time). Shadow Strike, Resilience, Iron Will, and Dodge are basically feat taxes to help ensure a Rogue can use her class abilities and isn't immediately splattered.

Stealth, Bluff, Disguise, Acrobatics, Perception, and UMD will all be maxed. Any ideas on what the most useful UMD scrolls/etc. are for a Rogue?

As I build this, though, I can't shake the feeling that it sucks and will get completely blown out of the water. I can make a level 12 Vivisectionist that does almost everything my Rogue can do better while also nullifying everything it does (immunity to poison and 50% immunity to SA, plus a bunch of other immunities). Also, Spontaneous Healing is so much better than Resilience it's not even funny.

But I want to make a straight Rogue useful in an ambush scenario...or at least not die without doing anything. Advice other than "Rogues suck, don't build a Rogue" is welcome.

If the Rogue even had two good base saves, it might be enough to make them more viable in my eyes. As it is, their only good base save is the least useful save (Reflex), while characters like Clerics, Rangers, Alchemists, and Magii have two good base saves.

The Rogue Talents introduced in Pathfinder were a step in the right direction, but that doesn't diminish the fact that:

-Rogues get crushed in straight-up combat by any spellcasting class or martial class. It's not a matter of "Well, their primary role isn't to be in combat, etc." They have less survivability than a Wizard, because...

-Their class abilities force them to place themselves in disadvantageous situations. A Fighter does best in a monster's face. A Wizard does best from far away. A Rogue does best when he's running away.

-The class abilities of the Rogue are comparatively weak. Sneak attack is nice and flavourful, but really not that great in terms of damage output. By 9th level, many Sorcerers have a random bonus ability (outside of their normal spells) that lets them do double what a Rogue's sneak attack damage would be at that level. Admittedly, it has a limited number of uses per day, but it's not like the Rogue will be sneak attacking all the time anyway.

-Their most important abilities rely on Dexterity, which forces them to wear bad armour AND have a feat tax in Weapon Finesse.

-They have little versatility in combat situations. OK, so you're up against a monster immune to sneak attack. Have fun.

-They have bad attack progression, which matters because they're the only class (other than Monk, which at least can survive) which relies fully on physical combat to deal damage that has bad BAB.

-Rogues shine a bit more in settings that have a high reliance on skills, but then why play a Rogue when you can just play a Ranger and be actually useful and tough, with good saves, at a cost of 2 skill points a level less?

The only argument for the Rogue being good at this point is traps, and if you're playing in an adventure that doesn't use many traps, well, there it is.

Personally, I love Rogues. I just wish they had a good Will save, or SOMEthing to make them stack up a little better next to other classes. And it's not just Rogues, it's their whole archetype. The Rogue-based Prestige Classes (Assassin, Shadowdancer) are just outright bad.

Poison Use (talent; Honestly who has access to, or money for, poison at those low levels?

That's why you take Craft (poisonmaking) and make your own.

I personally PREFER a spell-less assassin, but the assassin in the Beta is simply not worth it. It was already an underpowered class to begin with. Keeping the spells and adding the abilities it received would have made it playable and good, but as it is, it just got a whole lot worse.

I like assassin villains, and the spells gave them a way to infiltrate and then escape. Ghost Sound, Feather Fall, Spider Climb. The higher hit dice for a class that sees a lot of combat was worth it, but if you're going to remove spells completely...I don't know. Something needs to change.

I just got a leather-bound, gilt-edged, illustrated copy of Gene Wolfe's "The Shadow of the Torturer". Joy...

Chelish is to Chels as English is to Angles...?

"Chelish"...I like it.

No, it should say Chelaxian.

That makes it "different" then, I suppose.

Hello Everyone,

just got back from a creepy dark valley in Scotland to these - a week in a lodge in a forest in the company of a couple of Jeff Vandermeer books has distorted my reality in time for me to begin Escape from Old Korvosa.

Skinsaw owes much to James in particular and the Paizo crew for once again putting more method to my madness - hats off to them indeed - a fine group of chaps.

Logue has been mysteriously quiet about his adventure - which worries me greatly.

M'naaaaaaaaaaaaar

Rich

Bravo, bravo, bravissimo.

...

...I wish I were headed to a creepy dark valley in Scotland...

I'm going to get more than four hours of sleep for the first time in a month (excluding weekends) tomorrow. :)

Cheliax somehow feels more mediaeval Italian than Roman to me...maybe names like Melchiorre, Alessio, Gaspare.

In the fourteenth through sixteenth centuries, Italy was literally the assassination capital of the world, and many, many nobles were killed through poisoning especially, so maybe I make that connection because Cheliax is described as somewhat courtly and elegant, but also a very deadly place.

Poisons...D&D adventures can definitely use more enemies that poison their weapons as a matter of course. Or bribe the cook to poison your food at that inn you thought to stay the night at...

When the book gets closer to being released, if you remind us I bet we could pull some of the names from the book as examples of Chelaxian names. :)

By the way, shouldn't that be "Cheliaxan"? Though "Chelaxian" does sound nice...

I got it yesterday, and I have to say I was very impressed. I enjoyed the darker mood, and while one of the artists (whichever one drew Xanesha with the pointy golden breasts) was beyond my comprehension, the other continued to provide what I consider mood-fulfilling art. As to Richard Pett: the writing in this piece was well above my expectations. Very evocative, very well-done; I can see he has a great command of the English language. Mr Jacobs was right to laud the man in his introduction. I especially appreciated the lull in the battle with Aldern as he shifted between his three personalities, and I felt that Mr Pett did a fine job of considering the motivations of every character, from the wary farmers to the keeper of the sanatorium. The notes from Aldern were constructed with just the right touch of madness.

A quite definite shift in tone from the lighter first one, and it felt rather like a nice night of wine and H.P. Lovecraft. I'm looking forward to what new changes Mr Logue can provide in the upcoming installment.

Cheers.

I'd much rather use a name like Whaduigauydbnz in my campaign than some nice-sounding Japanese style name that makes some nerd argue with me about its functionality for over two weeks.

............

And my penultimate question, why do you persist in making a fool of yourself?

Because I keep forgetting how polite everyone is here.

Well, yeah, you can spell anything using my alphabet - but that doesn't mean it's pronounceable or natural. Whaduigauydbnz is spellable but it's not a great name - in any language. Neither, I might add is Xagyg :)

Have you ever looked at the old 1E Oriental Adventures? Our boy Gary did some funky stuff with the 'Chinese' in it - I imagine he did the same with the 'Japanese'.

I'm looking forward to getting Pathfinder 2 as well but won't be able to read it until we get it played through - gonna loan it to a non-subscriber friend for a read-through while it's on the do-not-read list. Posted another thread about going beyond Golarion and was told not to expect much on Minkai and Tian Xia for a while yet...but I'll be glad to get it when it does come.
M

I fully support the condemnation of Whaduigauydbnz as a viable name.

I have no idea what's going on.

Oh, I see. Well, if it's settled then. Cool.

I'm just really glad that all of the speakers of western languages don't have a problem with the names that don't have proper flavors from the perspective of their languages don't chime in - we'd have a really looooong thread. I mean, what the heck kind of name is Ethram or Abstalar or Jargie?

I do dig, however, that they have a guy (Mr. Logue I think?) with some knowledge of Chinese on staff :) I hope it'll keep Tian Xia a lot like our Earth's China. That way my new RotR character Li Xiaolong won't end up being too Earthy.

Yeah, I know I'm being a smartass. :)
M

I guess we were talking earlier in the thread about how while those sort of "weird" names are still POSSIBLE in the West, the Japanese (Minkai) names that were showing up weren't possible in Japan. i.e. you COULD name someone Ethram and it would be weird but plausible, but you really can't name someone Ameiko because there's no way to spell it.

I'm also looking forward to learning about Tian Xia.
Actually, I'm just looking forward to getting Pathfinder 2...

Sorry to harp on but does this not assume that they were *trying* to use correct Japanese and botched the job - as opposed to trying to make up some names that had Japanese flavor (as representatives from Paizo have noted repeatedly in this thread?)

I'm not gonna hang them when they pick a Chinese name, excuse me Tian Xia name, that doesn't quite suite my idea of proper Chineseishness. Seriously. It's Minkai, not Japan. It's Tian Xia, not China. And it's Varisia, not the south of France. Apples and oranges.

Guess I'm just not getting how you're still hung up on this. You seem like a pretty smart Joe and this is simple stuff.
M

The point, I guess, is that the names don't have Japanese flavour from the perspective of a speaker of Japanese? It's a little nitpicky and selfish, I admit.

And I'm not hung up on it. The issue has been resolved, and I couldn't be happier with the choice Mr. McArtor and co. made. I'm just...chiming in?

(like a broken record...) ;P

Personally, I think the point is the reason you have to be careful with Japanese sounding names is the same reason that you would avoid creating a name like Qvasan in English. While it appears to follow English rules, (Trevor has the same pattern of consonant-vowel), an English reader stumbles over reading the 'Qv' because those letters don't follow in English. (See Do'Urden, Drizzt.)

This is something of the reverse case. A reader who knows Japanese sees Ameiko and goes "How would you spell that in kanji?" There's still that momentary confusion that exists. Personally, it doesn't bother me over much, but for someone who is fluent, I can see why it would be distracting, and it would be better to use odd, yet viable Japanese, though that would require a lot more study from the module writer.

You are...much more succinct and convincing than me.

As a fluent speaker, it doesn't bother me THAT much.
But I consider module, adventure as works of art.
When I first read it, I wasn't outraged or anything. I don't expect very much from American publications when it comes to representing Japanese things. But because I know Paizo is so good and I do have high expectations of them, it just felt a little like someone missed a spot of polish on the diamond.

It would require more work from the module writer, I agree.
But that's a sacrifice which I'm willing to make. :)
(....so sorry...)
m(_ _)m

Not that I actually feel that we need to resurrect this thread, but since it stays high on the radar I gave it 5 minutes with my Random House Japanese-English/English-Japanese Dictionary, which revealed the following.

Ameiko
ame = rain
ikko = a party (of); a group
ameikko = rain group (weird euphemism for rain showers or storms?)
ameiko = misspelling

Tsuto
tsu = connoisseur; expert
to = door OR ten OR rattan OR pagoda; tower OR group; political party
tsuto = expert in political parties (seems appropriate, actually) or maybe expertly made rattan or pagoda

Kaijitsu
kai = seashell; shellfish OR meeting; conference OR party; gathering OR conference
ji = character (letter); handwriting
tsu = connoisseur; expert
kaijitsu = shellfish character expert (clan originator must have had really good calligraphy skills)

Clearly, these people are into groups or gatherings of some form. Three names, three different kanji for the concept. Maybe they're part of some hippy communal back in Minkai, and thus were exiled for their ultra-leftist ideologies?

Unfortunately, it's not as easy as mix-and-match. :(

It's true that many Japanese names are combinations of words, i.e. Moriyama = forest-mountain, but these names are all generally traditionally existing, and there's a certain science to how they go together and what goes with what.

You can generally tell by someone's last name something about their ancestors, because for a long time there weren't any in the peasant classes, and so when last names got created for them, the names of wherever they were living were used. So someone named Moriyama or Tanaka is basically descended from peasants, whereas someone with a name like Jyuujyou or Ichiemon is descended from a noble family or a samurai family.

I'm sure you knew all that, though! :)

Maybe they were conspiring to sell shellfish at twice the normal price? We all know how quickly that can bring the wrath of the gods down upon one's head.

Keep studying Japanese!
Ganbareba ganbaru hodo jyoutatsu nasaimasu yo.

James Jacobs wrote:

The concept of "ogre fluff" is going to give me nightmares.

That Nick Logue is a sicko, by the way. But in a good way.

At least you didn't say "ogre fluffer" - that would just be bad on so many levels.

*snorts*

I just want to say this is an awesome thread. It is great to see people really looking at the mechanics of various languages. And I for one really appreciate the name generator that the OP gave for us.

I'm glad you took it in the spirit in which it was intended. :)

some of the peeps here, heeh refer to those from Tokyo as uhm, assertive hehe as it seems most Japanese from Japan proper working here in the US find it difficult to be as forward and arguementative about things like bills and payments and things and like to have those from Toyko do that sort of thing for them; I help with some English grammar and words now and again and explain some of our cultural anomolies. On our company website there are a few blogs from Japanese coworkers about things they noticed different between the two countries and stuff like that; I find them very interesting and anyone who goes to Japan, which happens all the time, brings back little care packages for everyone.

People from Osaka are generally said to be the forward and argumentative ones...that's interesting to hear.

ouch; that one came back and smacked me; are we Americans considered rather cold by the Japanese? Of the many Japanese I work with, I think the Japanese are probably the most polite people on the planet; and everyone who goes to Japan from our company, that I know of and they go there a lot, really, really like it; many of the occidentals here speak or are learning Japanese.

hehe guess I will take my cold self back to lerking :)

Oh, I didn't mean Americans were cold, but as far as generalisations about people from Tokyo go, the biggest one is probably that "Tokyo-jin ha tsumetai"--they're a bit chilly.

hehe most of the Japanese I know; and that would be quite a few, dont think of the Japanese living in Tokyo as all that Japanese but as Americanized Japanese not much different than a Japanese/American born in America; not sure where I am going with this, but I considered it humorous and a bit ironic; hehe considering this thread.

It's true that people from Tokyo are thought of as rather cold.

I saw a TV program once in which they tested it and had an old woman drop a bushel of apples on a Tokyo street. Nobody stopped to help her or even gave her a second glance.

When she did the same thing in Aomori, about six or seven people rushed in from all directions to help her and see if she was all right.

uh, Tokyo mostly....

(as if that narrows it down)

My slumber in a cheap hotel in Meguro was punctuated by trips everywhere. I also holed up in a Ryokan near the Asaksa Kannon temple for a while but the ninjas found me... and then there was the home stay in Kobe, the city, not the basketball player.

Have you been to the Meguro Kiseichuukan? (The Meguro Parasitological Musem?) Wonderful place. There's a preserved dolphin brain with all sorts of tubers growing out of it and goodies like that. I'm very fond of Parasitology and it's a great museum if you're into that sort of thing.

I didn't know there were ninja in Asakusa...it's famous as a place where old ladies go, though I can certainly see how the distinction might have been puzzling.

And now the million-dollar question...did you eat the "Kobe Beef"?

Hmm, and in response to someone's earlier comment, no, "ninja" is not a loan word from Chinese. It's a Japanese word composed of the kanji for "shinobi" followed by the kanji for "person", and read using on-yomi, which, despite its frequent moniker as the "Chinese" reading, is as fully Japanese as kun-yomi, or the "Japanese" reading is. It's true that this "Chinese" reading takes a fair amount of phonetic influence from the Chinese language, but it is most assuredly Japanese. The kun-yomi equivalent of "ninja" would be "shinobi no mono".

Yikes!

As it may have bearing on my testimonials on these threads, I have to confess that I am a Canadian who lives in China, but has also lived in America for 3 years, Japan for 6 months, and Korea for a month.

Genetically I am 1/2 Latvian, 1/8 Irish, 1/8 German, and 1/4 Welsh, but I can't speak their languages, although the Irish sounds vaguely familiar.

Oh, where did you live in Japan?

That's the Mothra song.

It's the song that summons Mothra(s). :)

There are more than one? o_O

Takamori wrote:

I don't know if your fiancee is really Japanese or if she's Hawaiian with a Japanese name, but if she's the first, you might ask her what she thinks of the names.

She is not the least bit offended by the names. Neither are any of my Japanese friends (American-Japanese and Japanese born) and I have several.

Now you open another whole floodgate of problematic with the question is my wife "really Japanese," that's potentially very offensive. What do you mean by this? She is half-japanese ethnically. As to what it means to be Japanese, that is a whole other can of worms my friend. I'd be careful where you level loaded phraseology such as "really Japanese."

Are you really Japanese? Or are you potentially an oversensitive gaijin who sees offenses where none exist (I'm not saying you are this, but I've met a lot of people who fit this bill, and they always get their kimonos in a twist about topics like the one you have brought up).

I never assumed that your fiancee, or anybody, in fact, would be offended. I myself am not offended. I merely wanted to know what she thought of it, not whether or not it bothered her--those are the exact (and carefully chosen) words which I used. And what someone thinks of something can be any variety of things, which may or may not relate to whether or not they're offended. Perhaps she likes it? Perhaps she thinks it's silly? Perhaps cute? I was just curious.

And by "really Japanese", I meant is she a nihonkoku shimin? Has she lived the majority of her life in Japan? Because quite frankly, and with no disrespect intended, there is a world of difference, culturally speaking, between somebody born and raised in Japan, and somebody with Japanese heritage born and raised as an American citizen in Hawai'i. I meant no disrespect by the term. I intended to leave this discussion alone, but I wanted to come in and clear up any bad blood that may have resulted from that comment. I know a number of ethnically half-Japanese Hawai'ians, and most (but not all) of them cannot speak the language but for a smattering of terms. (By point of exception, my old boss at the acting studio in Tokyo I used to work at was Hawai'ian-born, and her Japanese was flawless except for a curious pidgin accent that I actually found quite charming.)

So when I said "really Japanese", I didn't mean to insinuate that your fiancee might be somehow "less than Japanese"; I just wondered whether she was commenting from the perspective of a Japanese citizen or an American citizen of Japanese descent. Again, I apologise for any perceived racism inherent in my careless use of the term.

I'll leave the rest of the discussion to the scholars. But Hill Giant and Azzy, I very much like your Ninja=Rogue/Samurai=Diplomatic Fighter way of looking at things.

*materialises*

Love and Peace.

*etherealises*

Exactly! The easiest way to make something look fantasy is to replace an i with a y. :)

Alice in Wonderland --> "The Looking-Glass Wars" --> "Alyss"

I've thought of calling them shinobi for the very reasons you said. On the other hand, I'm very much in the ninja-with-supernatural-powers camp. ;)

*blubbering-but-strangely-reassured*

Actually, with that, I'll leave it in your doubtlessly more-than-capable hands, turn incorporeal, and start lurking about in the walls again.

Thank you very much for all your consideration.

lol! I'm never gonna make you happy. ^_^

Well, you can have it one of two ways, Takamori-san: I can make all the "Japanese" names Japanese or I can make them all made-up. I don't think I can wrap my brain around doing both.

Oh, but you've already made me quite happy!

Ideally, I'd like to have the names in Japanese and the terms made up (or English), but when it comes down to it, real Japanese onegai itashimasu.

Even just calling ninja something less iconic, like shinobi (it's the same kanji) makes it feel less cliche-jumping-around-throwing-daggers-and-using-elemental-powers. In reality, the Rogue class IS a ninja, the only difference is in the tools and cultural setting. But please. If it's choosing between having actual Japanese names & including ninja OR having all made-up names and everything, sign me up for the first. Please.

In fact, I retract my statement of a few posts back. I should quit while I'm ahead.

For example, my name (Kynewulf), being Old English/Anglo-Saxon, is a prime display of this. It is composed of two units of meaning "kyne" (royal) and "wulf" (wolf). Similarly, the Old English name Alfred (which is far more common these days, than my name) is composed of "aelf" (elf) and "fraed" (counsel). So, this isn't a phenomena that is unique to the Japanese (nor the Chinese, from whom the Kanji own their origin).

Is your name really Kynewulf? I've read Cynewulf in the original Anglo-Saxon, and very much appreciate him as an author.

My point is this: your name is composed of meaning, yes, and sometimes meaning taken from a compound word-name. A Japanese person's name also has meaning. Your name has a sound, yes. A Japanese person's name also has a sound. A Japanese person's name, though, ALSO has an ideogram or kanji which has to match the sound--this ALSO has to be woven into the meaning of the name.

Enough for there to be ninja. And samurai. Nick really wants samurai. ;)

If there do turn out to be ninja and samurai, do you think it would be possible to call them something other than ninja or samurai, since those words are actually Japanese? (And you may be looking at my post like I'm crazy right now, since this seems to be the opposite of what I was saying before, but for words like ninja and samurai, which are so indelibly tied to real Japanese history, politics, and culture, I think it might be worthwhile to create new "Minkaian" words for them, as much to simply keep things fresh as to avoid any clashes with perceived unfaithfulness to what a "ninja" or "samurai" is.)

Azzy wrote:

So how much of an analogue will Minkai be for Japan? You should at least mix it up a bit rather than go for a straight clone.

About the same as Varisia is an analogue for Germany or England.

Do you have a particular time period you're looking at (loosely)?

The earlier Heian Period or Heian Jidai, a peaceful period in which a stable government reigned?

The Kamakura Period, in which a figurehead emperor held great authority but little power, and the warrior class ran the country but relied on the blessing of the emperor? (This is eerily similar to the Pope and the English kings...)

The Warring States period or Sengoku Jidai, in which hundreds of small fiefdoms wrestled for dominance across the country?

I'm curious now as to what sort of land Minkai might be...war-torn, or centrally ruled with an iron fist, or a hundred small kingdoms in an uneasy peace...

Mike McArtor wrote:

Incidentally, Tian Xia was named by Nick Logue, who is fluent in Mandarin. He knows what it means, but I don't. ;)

"All under heaven?" Nice. I wonder if he enjoyed Hero, too.

Interesting tidbit: this is written "tenka" in Japanese. The similarity between the languages is visible, isn't it, especially when on-yomi (Chinese readings) are used in Japanese. But isn't it "tien" in Mandarin Chinese? Or is that just a different way to Romanise the same word?

With respect, I have to disagree. With Western names, there are many distinct cultures with their own distinct languages, phonologies and naming conventions. Compare: Einar, Miriam, Alfred, Pierre, Eveshka, Siobhan, Ptolemy, Robert, Flavius, etc.

While the Latin alphabet may be used throughout Western Europe (let’s ignore Greek and Cyrillic and Eastern Europe), the phonemes attributed to each grapheme (or diagraph) of said alphabet vary from language to language. Let’s take the diagraph “ch,” for instance–it means strikingly different things to English, French and German speakers (for a small cross section). “Valeros,” in your example, would have a different sound to different language speakers across Europe.

I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. I meant if you compare Japanese language to any one Western language, not to all of them at once, which is a bit unfair. And even then, the actual process of naming someone still takes three steps in Japanese, not two as any of the names you mentioned do.

And I'm not even trying to dispute the fact that there are many distinct cultures with their own distinct languages, phonologies, and naming conventions in the Western hemisphere.

My point is that whatever phoneme you use, it's exactly that: a phoneme, a unit of sound, not a unit of meaning.

Yay! ^_^

Mosura ya Mosura
Tasukete yo te yobeba
Toki o koete
Umi o koete
Nami no yo ni yatte kuru
Mamorigami
Mosura ya Mosura
Yasashisasae wasure
Arehateta
Hito no kokoro
Inorinagara utau
Ai no uta

Mothra, O Mothra!

(Is this some sort of theme song?)

As an aside, what about the name "Obiwan Kenobi?"

Obi-Wan's character was, in fact, inspired by a Japanese person. The reason it doesn't bother me is because the people living on Tatooine, or wherever he presumably got his name, are not all Asian and named things like "Ebi-Han Yabura".

It's an oddish name that's actually somewhat further from Japanese than something like "Kaijitsu" or "Ameiko" (which despite their irritating dissimilarity to actual Japanese, come really quite close--kudos on that), and it's attached to an obviously non-Japanese person in a desert setting that obviously bears no relation to Japan, so I never thought to question it...

Okay, so James Jacobs and I had a nice little chat a few minutes ago. As I've thought about this subject throughout the morning and early afternoon, I have become more inclined to agree with the OP. After my discussion with James I'm fully in favor of using proper Japanese naming conventions for Minkai. We're no experts, so we might get things wrong once in a while, but the effort will be there. Ditto our Arabic-influenced areas, our Chinese-influenced areas, our German-influenced areas, and so on.

I love languages and cultures, so shame on me for not forcefully enforcing this from the get-go. Any errors you detect in the future will be just that: errors.

And with that, I consider this discussion over. Let's all please remember to play nice with one another.

Thanks. :)

That's really more than I could have hoped for...thank you very much.

Ameiko Kaijitsu is actually a semi-important character in another way... I've actually got an entire adventure path idea bubbling in my head around her and the reasons her family was exiled. And just now, I've actually come up with a cool in-game reason why her name's the way it is (and the names of her father and brother). The short version: the Kaijitsus were kind of "on the run" from Minkai, and when they decided to settle in Magnimar/Sandpoint, they changed their names to a weird Varisian variant/version of their real names as part of the attempt to through pursuit off their trail. This was all several decades ago, and it sort of stuck regionally with them. Having names that can't be spelled in their native tongue is an interesting way of throwing off pursuit and all that.

That's...incredibly innovative of you. Very impressive! Wow...

This is educational and I appreciate your explanation. Just to play the devil's advocate, or to help me understand further, couldn't a person say that in Minkai such linguistic traditions and character notations have different connotations of sound and meaning? For instance, a fantasy name in English could be spelled out, Joh'Lork. The apostrophe doesn't necessarily have any meaning in English, but can still be used in a fantasy name with different conventions. We continue to use English characters only because that is what we have to go on, but it's not necessarily the characters used in the actual fantasy world.

In other words, I feel like we are making up the rules when it comes to fantasy names, but it seems that you feel we should stick to a kanji tradition in the fantasy world of Minkai. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I guess I need further understanding.

The difference, to me, is that "Joh'Lork" doesn't fit into any real-world cultural medium as far as I can tell. "Kaijitsu" and "Ameiko" are obviously, and as Mr. Jacobs also affirmed, attempting to "sound" Japanese, but if they want to "sound" Japanese to someone who speaks Japanese, they need to follow the convention I outlined above. A person could say that in Minkai, such naming conventions do not follow, but the naming conventions in Minkai are so obviously based on the real-world set of Japanese names that it shatters my suspension of disbelief.

A great way to create names that sound foreign and fantastic to a Japanese person while still remaining "Japanese" is to do what an author named Ono Fuyumi did when she wrote a book called "The Twelve Kingdoms" (Jyuuni Kokki), and create new, previously-unheard of names using the on-yomi (Chinese reading) of kanji. (All kanji have at least two readings, a Japanese one and a Chinese one, both of which, of course, are Japanese, but this is getting complicated.)

For example, for a race of half-animal people, she created the word "Hanjyuu", literally "half-beast", but from a previously unheard of combination of characters. To deviate from tradition in even such little ways is a large leap for the Japanese language and marks the word as sufficiently "separate" from "real" Japanese as to be usable in fantasy, in my opinion.

Creating names in this particular manner, however (if that is the sort of way you wanted to go about it--and there are others), requires quite deep knowledge of Japanese, which is part of why I offered to help in the first place. I do understand how I could have been perceived as rude, though.

Unless a game designer is also a linguist (like Tolkein) who creates languages for each culture (don't hold your breath), they only have two choices for flavor: "borrow" names/words from a real world language or "make up" names/words that "sound similar" to a real world language.

Even in Tolkien's languages, his elven was heavily Welsh-based, his dwarven Hebrew-based, etc.

I'm not trying to be insensitive to any culture, I'm just trying to understand how this is insensitive to a specific culture when put into context with the same, existing treatment of other cultures?

I'm going to try to address this, and I hope I don't come across as pedantic or arrogant.

It's because to make an equivalence, you have to actually do more work on the Japanese side, BECAUSE the naming conventions are, in fact, more complex.

In European/Western naming conventions, there are two forces at work: the meaning of the name, and the sound of the name, the sound being equivalent to the written form. If I name somebody "Valeros", we can examine whatever possible etymological meaning "Valeros" might have, but as far as the sound and written form go, they are the same.

In Japanese, there are three forces at work: the meaning of the name, the sound of the name, and the written form of the name, ALL OF WHICH ARE WHOLLY SEPARATE ENTITIES. Therein lies the problem. The sound and the written form are not one entity, but two separate entities, both of which must be reconciled with each other to make a name.

Somebody in America could conceivably name their child "Regdar". They would be considered rather balmy, but they could do it.

Somebody in Japan could NOT, similarly, name their child "Ameiko", because it is impossible to write, unless they decided to write it in syllabic hiragana or katakana ONLY, which is almost never done. It IS done sometimes, but ONLY in the case of names which can also be written in kanji (i.e. I know a woman named Yoshiko whose name is written in katakana only, a rather old-fashioned naming convention used only for women--but Yoshiko COULD have been written in kanji, had her mother/father desired it).

Therefore, to craft a viable name, the crafter must take one further step in Japanese than in English. This is not because of any cultural entitlement, but because it is a linguistic necessity. You can still, however, create unusual, fantasy-sounding names within the boundaries of this necessity.

Does that...help answer your question?

I'm really curious now. I work for an accounting firm with a large Japanese and Korean client base. We have a host of in-house international tax law translators: I don't think any of them were linguistics majors (probably MBAs) but they'll do. I'm going to do a little office poll and see what they think about fantasy name conventions.

I'd be very interested to hear what your [Japanese] clients have to say. Please let me know. The one girl I've asked so far (and I'll write this in Japanese and then translate it, just so anyone who knows Japanese can read it if they please) said this:

Me:
Amerikajin no tame no shousetsu ni ne, "Ameiko Kaijitsu" tte namae wo wafuu namae to shite tsukau koto ni dou omou?

Her:
Ee? Sonna namae, kiita koto ha nai yo.

Me:
Iya, jissai arienai namae dakedo, nihonjin no you na namae to shite katte ni tsukurareta mono de... (a word was edited out by the system because it was too similar to an English curse word)

Her:
Sonna hon, yomitakunai kedo...

TRANSLATION:

Me:
What do you think about using a name like "Ameiko Kaijitsu" as a 'Japanese-type' name in an American story?

Her:
Huh? I've never heard of that sort of name.

Me:
No, I mean it's not a real name, but it's something created to sound like a Japanese name...

Her:
I don't want to read that sort of book...

This is just my friend I'm talking to anyway, and as has been discussed before, it's probably more of an issue related to who the target audience is. For a Japanese audience, that sort of name is more than a little odd, but maybe it's all right for an American audience.

I understand Takamori's point of view. In a nation that has its own soldiers ignorant enough to enter a mosque with boots and take pictures, we could use a little more cultural sensitivity. But I think the names not sounding legitimately Japanese in a fantasy setting is not culturally debasing. Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps we need someone born and raised in Japan to enlighten us. And even then, that would be the opinion of...

I never claimed it was culturally debasing, though. Just...linguistically painful.

For what it's worth, Takamori, I enjoyed your posts, even if I didn't necessarily follow where they were headed. And I salute you for affording other cultures the same respect you extend to the Japanese. Domo Arigato, Takamori-san.

Mit tiefer Dankbarkeit, Herr Gersen.

Finally, when Mr. Jacobs posted again, and didn't seem willing to grovel for Takamori's obviously superior knowledge on the subject, Takamori posted her/his guide directly to the board.

I...I wasn't trying to get him to...grovel...

Instead of "making a big deal out of" the unconventional names James used for the characters from Minkai, it might be more worthwhile to accept them as unusual-sounding fantasy names and then use them as the basis for an alternate language that could have originated in the fictional land of Minkai.

I had accepted them by the conclusion of my conversation with Mr. Jacobs; what's succeeded that is comprised mostly of linguistic banter and debate mixed in with my responses to people incredulous that I could possible think the way I do.

So for anybody still reading this: I've accepted those names as they are in Pathfinder. I'm not the happiest clam in the sea about it, but I've accepted them. I still, however, welcome discussion on where to draw the line between reality (a healthy dose is good, wot?) and fantasy so that the game may be both enjoyable and believable.

And for the record, I wasn't insulted by the naming guide. It's actually kind of helpful.

I intended it merely in a helpful spirit, but I'm sorry if it came across as arrogant/snobbish as has been suggested.

The current nonsensical mishmash has the advantage of wide appeal and vast flexibility. Why not stick with that model, which has worked well since Arneson and Gygax invented the game?

It's a fine model, but it doesn't hurt to discuss what's wrong with it.

Here's another one: trolls and ogres can't coexist because they are really the same creature. Trolls are the more etymologically, historically, and culturally correct; ogres were invented by Perrault from the same Latin root word that Tolkein used to invent orcs.

I wouldn't mind separating the monsters into groups based on cultural mythology, just so if somebody wants to run a culture-specific campaign, they'll know exactly what monsters are appropriate for it and can thus flesh each individual monster out to a greater degree within the countryside and local lore and legend in their campaign.

Why do we feel a need to "protect" other cultures in a fantasy setting, but give free reign to slice, dice, and otherwise "misinterpret" Western culture and civilization. We are talking about a game that mixes mermaids, centaurs, gnomes, dragons, and all other kinds of myths across various cultures.

Ooh! You put your finger on my biggest D&D-related gripe.

Various forms of Oriental snobbery are no more appropriate than European snobbery would be coming from me or from Stefan or from Magdalena (to name a few cultural and/or literal northern Europeans on the boards). For anyone who insists on linguistic or cultural accuracy, go nuts, but why stop at the psuedo-Japanese stuff, instead of cleaning house with respect to the psuedo-Eurpoean stuff as well?

I'm all for European snobbery. Let's clean the whole house, shall we?