Starbin's page

so the books will be under the name Champions or Hero System???? and if you dont mind me asking wwats GURPS Supers???

Well, both :). The basic rulebook (all you NEED to play) is the 5th Edition Revised Hero System (go to http://www.herogames.com/Products/hero5ER.htm for a look). Hero System has a number of levels/genres you can play look at that basic rulebook like buying a basic d20 rulebook ... and subsequently purchase supplements for. Champions is the supplement I would suggest, since you're new to their world (http://www.herogames.com/Products/championsbook.htm). It gives you insight on how to use 5th Edition for superhero play .

Champions Universe is like buying Forgotten Realms Campaign Set ... it just gives you a timeline, campaign ideas, some pre-made villains and heroes, etc (http://www.herogames.com/Products/CU.htm).

Beyond that, everything else is gravy ... but check here for some other items that might tempt your tummy (http://www.herogames.com/Products/champions.htm). These are all for the 'classic' genre of superheroes ... what is often referred to as 'four-color' campaigns. Superheroes are larger than life, with lots of incredible powers at their disposal, and typically right and wrong are black and white (i.e., Superman, Silver Surfer, etc). There is another genre that 5th Edition Hero System supports ... and that's Dark Champions (http://www.herogames.com/Products/darkchampions.htm). Think of this as 'street level' comics ... where the right/wrong can get real grey, and nobody has 'cosmic powers.' Daredevil, Punisher, Batman ... Dark Champions is much more about the feel - vigilante versus superhero, really.

GURPS is Generic Universal Role Playing System (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/)... and it has even more genres than Hero System! It can (and often will) take any genre and put a book out on it (from Fantasy to Greece to Traveller to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles to you name it!). It looks like they are on 4th edition, but the last GURPS Supers book might have been 2nd edition ... so they still sell the stuff, but not sure how much 'support' there is available.

Not sure if this helped, or is just a bunch of advertisements :)
Sorry about the off-topic flow of info ...

BG

Arcane4life wrote:

very off topic but i noticed above that someone said something about super hero rpgs....are these still in print and if they are can anyone suggest a good one...very very off topic sry

I've always been a fan of the Hero system. version 5 is in print and being supported. You role lots of dice in game but character creation is build it how you want it...no dice. Pretty good game if you have a deadacated DM. But that can be said of any game I guess.

Yub, Hero system is awesome! The ultimate in flexibility. I think DC Heroes is still around, too. I'm sure Hero's Unlimited is still supported ... at least I see the books in the stores still. And you can always go to GURPS Supers, if nothing else. But I'm with hewhorocks ... Hero system (specifically referred to as Champions) is really nice. Lots of new material out, as well, like campaign supplements, character creation, organization useage, etc.

BG

Help me out where would I find the changes to this trick. As far as I can tell with both phb and dmg open in front of me I can't find any restriction on when one can use cleave.

I agree ... I don't see anything in the rules that prevents someone from using Cleave on an AOO. It specifically says that if an attack (it doesn't say normal attack, or standard/full attack) does enough to drop an opponent, there is a free cleave attack. Attacks of opportunity simply provide you an additional attack due to circumstances. I think the limitation is that only one cleave can be done per round ... therefore, if you used it earlier in the round, you can't use it now - and the other side is that if you use it during an AOO first, you can't use it during your attack later.

Combat Reflexes plus Great Cleave can be powerful ... but if you are fighting things that you can kill in one swing on each attack, yeesh ... maybe you should fight some tougher things :)

It's important to note that the cleave/great cleave should be resolved immediately (i.e., if you are going to get multiple AOOs, you can't wait and see what happens with those first).

The bag-o-rats is no longer valid because the Whirlwind feat no longer allows bonus/extra attacks (i.e., via haste, cleave, etc). Perhaps that's the disconnect.

My two copper,
BG

We didn't mention those other systems because it hasn't come up, not out of any desire to ignore them.

Oh I get that ... just throwing out some observations.

Under 3.0 and 3.5, D&D is now a more robust system, since it incorporates the two types. The advantage is more choices in character creation, meaning you can craft a character you desire and have the numbers to back up any assertions about the PC. (Something that was sorely lacking in 2nd edition).

I totally agree ... I stopped playing AD&D for a long while because of the lack of flexibility. It got to the point where the only way to have fun was to have a DM that totally 'rewrote' the rules. Thank goodness for 3+!

And in regards to your concerns about min-maxing, remember you still are the DM. Just tell the players that all flaws are subject to your approval (per the rules). As such, if you don't like a Mage taking -2 on all attack roles, then make it a -4 to attack roles ... or half damage on all melee attacks ... or loss of all weapon proficiencies, or make him take something else. As I recall in Hero system, the key to disadvantages were that they had to be a disadvantage (i.e., a hunted that never hunts you is free points). So, for our example of the Mage, put the player in a situation where melee is encouraged (anti-magic fields, out of spells, in prison with no components). Your game, your call - make sure your players get that flaws are flaws.

Or only allow traits, which as mentioned before give built-in balance and 'give & take' ... just some ideas.

Thanks for the discussion,
BG

For unarmed strike, I thought it mentioned that anything that affects natural, martial or unarmed attacks affects your strike. If that's the case, can you stack Sanctify Ki Strike, Sanctify Martial Strike, Sanctify Natural Attack and Sanctify Weapon? I didn't think so at first, since they all seemed similar in function, but because they all had different entry requirements, I began to question.

Is there an official answer on this? Either way, speculation and opinion are welcome!

P.S - what's up with Cha 15 being a prerequisite? Don't monk's have it tough enough trying to maintain a good Str, Dex and Wis? Gettting t'be as hard as it is for Pally's!

Thanks in advance!
BG

Deadlands is one of the most original role-playing games ever developed, and it won the Origins awards its first year out. What did it have? Flavor.

And for those of you into card games akin to MTG, there was a Deadlands version that was VERY flavorful ... enjoyed the heck out of following the story lines the cards told you ...

Long before Unearthed Arcana Deadlands also had "Edges and Hindrances". Edges are like feats, and Hindrances are like Flaws. Some were based on role-playing, some had mixed effects and some were all bad. They normally come in different "flavors".

Okay, I know it's a bit off topic, and I apologize, but I find it interesting y'all don't mention GURPS, Heroes and Villains, or Hero System (to a certain extent), or any of the other RPGs out there that have long practiced the 'yin for yang' approach to character creation. Seems to me that Basic D&D and Marvel Super Heroes represents the one end of the spectrum for character creation (roll and play, with little to now 'building') and DC Heroes-style games at the far end of the spectrum, requiring a complete build of your characters. I really like the advances that 3.5 has brought to character creation ... once upon a time I only played fantasy if it was Fantasy Hero; but now I accept there is a nice balance between the two.

I think flaws bring an interesting flavor, but I agree with the consensus that the DM needs to truly consider the ramifications of the potential power-gaming (and if they are willing to let that happen).

One quick question before I go ... besides Unearthed Arcana, what are some good sources for flaws from the magazines? I collect Dragon, but I have a tendancy to get behind and forget issue numbers :)

Thanks!
BG