SnowyJune9703's page

Suppose that there's a template, whose only content is to give the base creature ability to cast spells like a x-th level druid/cleric/wizard/sorcerer/... . How much should the template's CR modifier be?

Few monsters have similar abilities, so it's been a real problem for me to find out the exact CR modifier. (Obviously the CR offset shouldn't be more than x)

a comparison is the [Spellcasting Class] Creature templates. these templates grants 5 spell slots, aside from a few important class abilities of the related class. These templates have a max CR modifier of +3.

Well looks like the CR modifier is not a fixed number. Then I'll have to add some restrictions:

What's the approximate value of the modifier when 1/2 base CR <= x <= base CR, and the base creature has a SCL of more than x?(e.g. Base creature = Elf Wizard 19, x = 15)
And what's the approximate value of the modifier when x < 1/2 base CR, and the base creature has a SCL of more than x?(e.g. Base creature = Elf Wizard 19, x = 6)
And what's the approximate value of the modifier when x < 1/2 base CR, and the base creature can't cast spells?

I think that should make the question clearer.

Snowyjune9703 wrote:

Suppose that there's a template, whose only content is to give the base creature ability to cast spells like a x-th level druid/cleric/wizard/sorcerer/... . How much should the template's CR modifier be?

This is not a good use of the template rules, and there is no way you could get a "one-size-fits-all" CR adjustment on a template like that. If you put the spellcasting powers of a 7th level wizard on a CR 1 monster then that creature is going to get phenomenally more powerful; probably CR 5 or CR 6. If you slap the spellcasting power of a 7th level wizard on a CR 20 monster it's going to have a negligible impact on the creature's combat potential and will mostly be a utility option... so CR 21 is being generous.

This sort of situation is much better handled by adding PC class levels to the monster in question. This gives it HD progression to better match its new CR, and the rules for CR when advancing with PC class levels are a pretty good ballpark. Alternatively there's the class graft system from Pathfinder Unchained, although personally I prefer just adding class levels.

That's right, the CR modifier depends on the base creature's CR. So, say I'm going to make a Wizard 19 Elf 20-buy NPC(CR19) to have the ability to cast cleric spells like a 13th cleric, then what's the CR modifier? Is that +1, +2 or so? ( In such situation, adding PC class levels is not possible)

P.S., actually the [Class] Creature Template's CR modifier is also a progression, rather than a fixed number. However that's a slightly different situation.

Suppose that there's a template, whose only content is to give the base creature ability to cast spells like a x-th level druid/cleric/wizard/sorcerer/... . How much should the template's CR modifier be?

Few monsters have similar abilities, so it's been a real problem for me to find out the exact CR modifier. (Obviously the CR offset shouldn't be more than x)

a comparison is the [Spellcasting Class] Creature templates. these templates grants 5 spell slots, aside from a few important class abilities of the related class. These templates have a max CR modifier of +3.

I think the answer is "whatever they feel they can get away with".

While there are various specializations of gods (gods of divine light are probably not that great at turning people undead), the real constraints on a god are more practical in nature.

The first constraint is safety. Personally showing up has its risks- as shown when the Whispering Tyrant killed Arazni. When a god takes personal action, they are threatened by other their original target, and any enemies that notice they are out of their heavily guarded divine realm.

The second constraint- which is more important for this discussion- has similar problems. If a god makes a big, shiny new toy... some demon lord will want to kick sand in that god's face and break that toy. Even those with more conservative investments like clerics are still 'made an example of' fairly often. Granting the power suggested above seems like it would attract a lot of attention... the wrong kind.

Sudden power spikes are probably better for NPCs that are living macguffins the players have to protect.

You've really given me some constructive suggestions. However as I'm not so familiar with the setting of Golarion, could you please tell me how 'big' a toy should be to attract a demon lord or other evils?

What gods do to NPCs really doesn't matter. Go hog wild. Just don't have them participate in battles because this is very, very un-Pathfinder. Especially on Galorian since the gods don't want to take any chance of accidentally releasing Rovagug.

Now doing anything you proposed to players...no. Bad idea. Just don't. So let me explain why its bad.

Forcing huge changes to a player's character takes away the player's sense of agency. Choices like levels and other advancement decisions are suppose to be totally under the players control. Losing control of that is a gross violation of the character, and the player experience. Also the player has just potentially had a lot of abilities thrust upon them. The player may not ever come to terms with everything they've just gained and may forget about abilities and never use them.

Even just rapidly advancing a character will give the same problem. It has less to do with the player not being aware of their abilities and more with the party not being use to the changes in their fellows. You get a little bit of that with each level up. Making a huge change will shake things up even more.

Time travel is...a plot device. Do it for a reason. Your players will do something retarded, like kill the BBG from their first adventure in the past. Or leave their future selves a fortune. Time travel is bad, k?

Artifacts are standard fare. Doesn't matter if its a god handing them out or not. Though if you look through the list of artifacts you'll notice a lot are involved with gods but not directly handed out.

If you are trying to make a NPC special, you might consider that interaction with a deity awakened them to Mythic levels. Mythic characters and monsters are absurdly powerful for their level/CR. Mythic is a whole new can of worms so investigate the entire system before you start slapping on mythic abilities.

Thanks for your advice. Your point of view on controlling players' resources are thought-provoking.

For convenience, let's limit the subject of this topic to the 20 core deities. Suppose that their power are on the same level, and they don't have infinite power. Then, what do you think is the greatest/powerful/hardest/... thing they are able to do, or what do you think is that they're not able to do?

I came up with this question when I was writing a NPC's backstory. As an Arcanist 19/Archmage 4, it's a natural thing that her god(dess) approached her and had a meeting with her after she took part in an epic fight. But what the god(dess) will do became a question for me - if (s)he is satified with her follower, what will (s)he be able to offer? If (s)he is angry with her follower, what kind of punishment will (s)he be able to give?

While I'm trying to make the plot feasible, I'd like to hear your suggestions: I'll list a few things below and please tell me if you think it's possible for a deity to accomplish each of them; Or, maybe you have a better description of the border of a deity's capability in mind?

Thanks a lot.

------------------------
(1) Grant a character some PC class levels(possibly Cleric), which will not cause the character to advance to over lv20.
(2) Grant a character some PC class levels(possibly Cleric), which will cause the character to advance to over lv20.
(3) Send a character to the near past.(e.g. fewer than 10 years before)
(4) To possess a major artifact that has little connection with his/her areas of concern.
(5) ...

P.S. if a deity is able to do something, however doing such will harm the deity's own interest, then I'll consider this thing as what the deity is 'unable' to do.