Hey guys, I’m sorry but I have to ask a question that was already discussed on the pages here before because I do not understand it. Part of my difficulties comes from people using a lot of shorthand notation, but I’m rather new to pathfinder and it would be nice if you could spell it out for me because it is very hard to follow if you do not have much intuition.
That said, about the new quick alchemy x quick bomber x double brew (I’m looking here at the versions presented in the youtube channel of The Rules Lawyer)
The way I understand it, either
(A) double brew is useless,you can have quick bomber and double brew gives you nothing in addition
or
(B) double brew is only really useful if you have quick bomber, AND the prepared versatile vials (2+int) are completely useless
which depends on whether or not you can use quick alchemy off of a versatile vial in your inventory, those 2+int that are replenishable (A) or if you have to draw them first (B).
My thought process is the following:
(A)
In this path, the cost of actions to throw a versatile vial are as big as throwing a bomb from the book so you can always modify them to be one of your book, so long as you have the resources. Once they are gone, you have to spend one additional action to first create the needed vials or throw the vials themselves at the cost of having a less impressive bomb - the cost of limited resources by their nature.
(A.1) You do not have quick bomber. You do not have double brew.
Action 1: Modify a versatile vial from inventory into a bomb in your hand
Action 2: Throw the bomb.
(A.2) You do have quick bomber. You do not have double brew.
Action 1: Modify a versatile vial from your inventory into a bomb in your hand and throw it for free.
(A.3) You do not have quick bomber. You do have double brew.
Action 1: Modify 2 versatile vials from your inventory into 2 bombs in your hands.
Action 2: Throw the first bomb.
Action 3: Throw the second bomb.
Using (A.2) twice costs one action less, so if you only want to spend one feat, it is better.
(A.4) You do have quick bomber. You do have double brew.
Action 1: Modify 2 versatile vials from your inventory into 2 bombs in your hands and throw the first one for free.
Action 2: Throw the second bomb.
You could have simply used (A.2) twice for the same action cost, not using the double brew feat. This makes the double brew feat useless. Quick bomber is a Lvl 1 feat, Double brew lvl 9.
(B)
You can always use quick alchemy to create versatile vials. Any time you draw them, you could as well create them. You do not need to use any prepared ones at all.
(B.1) You do not have quick bomber. You do not have double brew.
Action 1: Create (or draw) 1 versatile vial
Action 2: Modify the versatile vial into the bomb
Action 3: Throw the bomb
Reduces by 1 action if you want to throw a versatile vial instead.
(B.2) You do have quick bomber. You do not have double brew.
Action 1: Create (or draw) 1 versatile vial
Action 2: Modify the versatile vial into the bomb, throw the bomb
Reduces by 1 action if you want to throw the versatile vial instead.
(B.3) You do not have quick bomber. You do have double brew.
Action 1: Create 2 versatile vials. No point in drawing them unless in preparation for the next turn.
Action 2: Modify 2 versatile vials into 2 bombs
Action 3: Throw the first bomb. The second goes to waste.
Alternative 1: Have already drawn 2 versatile vials the round before. Those can not be quick alchemy’d, they’d have gone to waste. So 2 actions of the previous turn taken to throw 2 now. Over two rounds, 1 action saved compared to just using (B.1) twice, but having to set up is difficult because it limits how you can react to the game going. Also, throwing bombs earlier is better for persistent stuff and debuffs hitting earlier.
Alternative 2: Throwing versatile vials. Skip action 2 of the main (B.3) setup means 3 actions for 2 versatile vials.
The benefit from Double Brew is near vanishing here I think. In general, I’d prefer bombs over versatile vials, so for the effect I’d usually go for one bomb over 2 versatile vials, and for earlier throwing of bombs over saving 1 action in 2 turns. In the (A) track, the cost for creating a quick bomb over a quick versatile vial is given by the limitedness of resources, but in the (B) track, you don’t care about them because quick alchemy lets you create them as well as you can draw them. And where in the single brew case I understand the 1 extra action to make it a special bomb, the double brew feat is virtually limited to cases where I want to throw two versatile vials, making it a really weak choice.
(B.4) You do have quick bomber. You do have double brew.
Action 1: Create 2 versatile vials.
Action 2: Modify 2 versatile vials into the desired bombs and throw one.
Action 3: Throw the second bomb.
Alternative:
Action 1: Create 2 versatile vials and throw one.
Action 2: modify the second versatile vial and throw it.
Now only with the combination of the feats, double brew seems actually useful. This is, of course debatable, it is not as useless as in track (A). BUT the replenishable versatile vials to be prepared do not need to exist because you can just create your versatile vials.
I understand some feats are only useful in combination with another, and it is hard to think of a bomber not taking the quick bomber feat, but even so: The existence of replenishable versatile vials is negated. And in doing so are feats like the one restoring a few on the fly.
Can someone tell me any fallacies in my thoughts? And why you believe it should be ruled (A) or (B)?