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But as i stated its much more of a theoretical matter in order to better understand the rules of pathfinder, its not even that great of a bonus it just makes the maneuver monk a little more viable where it already is pretty decent. But if i were to read it as a computer would, it probably would need a patch not to reset the bonus to attack to level -5 per additional attacks or the number will always be reset because the wording implies not a penalty but a new attack with a new attack bonus value which gets replaced by level after. If i was a gm and this would be presented to me i would either accept or put it to a vote to the other players on how they feel about it, its actually a pretty cool advantage in terms of using more maneuver as monk but not that of a game breaking bonus level.

I was really seeking what RAW had to say but it still needs a bit of interpretation along the way.

BAB is more a theoretical starting point than an actual bonus. It is used to calculate several different things including when you get more attacks and the bonus from certain feats. The rules are straight forward when you gain those attacks and what they start at. You second attack is not at a BAB of +1, it is a second attack at a bonus or +1.

Which then replaced by monk level or does the game would instead have us to believe that if you are to use a maneuver then use your level to determine your base attack bonus? if that is true, does that mean you get to do an additional +1 maneuver during a full attack at lvl 6 when your BAB is still +4 if you are not using flurry of blow? The wording in flurry of blow does specifies it to work like that and it is reflected in the monk table how flurry gains a new hit at level 6, but not in the wording of maneuver training.

See for yourself:

Flurry of Blows (Ex)

The monk rules for flurry of blows state: “For the purpose of these attacks, the monk’s base attack bonus is equal to his monk level.”

Maneuver Training (Ex)

At 3rd level, a monk uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus when calculating his Combat Maneuver Bonus. Base attack bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are added normally.

I assume when you calculate this is during the maneuver and at this point your BAB would already at a reduced and then gets replaced to monk level. When i asked my friend who usually GM and is really on point with raw rules in general if the monk when doing full attack action to do maneuver is subject to base attack bonus rules for additional attack as a fighter would he casually said no.

This question became awkward when they started using replacement wording which is really the turning point of my own confusion, because in the description of flurry, it is clearly stated that you count your BAB as equal to your monk level, but in combat maneuver training, use your monk level instead of your BAB.

It is mostly theoretical because i like to know how the rules work and not just make assumption on how they intended it to work. I do play a monk which is why it might become practical tough i really don't need that to be effective at all. In the end i will probably just play as if it was simply -5 and consider it a loophole they failed to cover.

The reasoning is pretty simple if you where to do a full attack maneuver not using flurry when you have BAB = +6/+1 :

+6(replaced my monk level)/+1(replaced by monk level) where would be the 2nd hit base attack or iterative penalty or whether if it affect BAB before or after it is being replaced by monk level.

P.S. And why do i play a standard basic monk, i wanted to stick to the core and i like the versatility of the basic monk. My allies are an alchemist and a cavalier, buffs makes the monk potential pretty silly, just haste on a monk is pretty broken if you spend a ki to add another attack to your flurry and improved ki throw is a pretty hilarious feat to pack up mobs and outflank them while they get bombed.

This might sound silly at first glance, but really isn't.

Whenever someone has at least 6 in base attack bonus, he is granted a new attack, now does the reason this attack starts at +1 BAB because of a penalty that they are not mentioning or straight forward a new attack that starts with +1 BAB?

There is no suggestion in the rules anywhere that it is a penalty but it does specify that if you replace with a maneuver, it will use the according attack Base attack Bonus. "For example, a creature with a BAB of +6/+1 who performs a trip with her second attack uses +1 as her BAB for the CMB of the trip."

Base Attack Bonus ruling:

"Source: d20srd.org

A base attack bonus is an attack roll bonus derived from character class and level or creature type and Hit Dice (or combination’s thereof). Base attack bonuses increase at different rates for different character classes and creature types. A second attack is gained when a base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher. Base attack bonuses gained from different sources, such as when a character is a multiclass character, stack."

Now a monk maneuver training let you use your monk level "in place" of your BAB, does that means the second attack of a round would still has a +6 to cmb?

In the monk flurry of blow it specifies that it works as if you BAB was your level, but the maneuver specifies that it use your level to replace your BAB bonus which does not seems to make it susceptible to the -5 you would normally add to your second attack since this -5 does not exist to begin with.

IMO both option could be intended, was it intended to work like flurry or is it a sightly more powerful buff to maneuver class, when i compare to other class features, it does not seem that overwhelming.

Thanks in advance!

Now i know that this is 3 years later but somehow even trough the debate, it is still unclear to me what exactly happens to maneuver bonus during a flurry of blow, it is certain that it is not claimB because you suffer from the -2 on all roll from flurry and -5 -10 from the hit granted by improved and greater 2 weapons fighting. There is absolutely no reason to bybass those penalty with maneuver training. Therefore, another valid point arise, does the attack *Granted* by the BAB reaching 6 at +1 are calculated Monk level -2, or monk level -2 -5.

I came up with 2 argument myself one against and one for each of them and i would like to know what you believe RAW intended.

1 : flurry of blows state: “For the purpose of these attacks, the monk’s *base attack bonus is equal* to his monk level.” Which implies that everything is already calculated for you and use Flurry you should simply calculate the flurry bonus as BAB. Note that i put some emphasis on some important wording for the next argument.

2: maneuver training states At 3rd level, a monk uses his monk level *in place* of his base attack bonus when calculating his Combat Maneuver Bonus. Base attack bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are added normally. The wording specifie that we no longer use Base attack bonus and it is replaced by monk level. If you refer to the base attack bonus rules, it does not say you are granted an attack at -5 of your total BAB but grants you a new attack at +1, which is then replaced by monk level, but still have to -2 from flurry.

Base attack Bonus ruling:
"A base attack bonus is an attack roll bonus derived from character class and level or creature type and Hit Dice (or combination’s thereof). Base attack bonuses increase at different rates for different character classes and creature types. A second attack is gained when a base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher. Base attack bonuses gained from different sources, such as when a character is a multiclass character, stack."