Scuttlefish's page

I hate that I built in so many teasers for the Cheliax War with the intent to run this AP. The PCs are the perfect level to start. Only I find out the AP doesn't just have an occasional dose of skirmish rules, but is essentially 100% built around them. I understand it's a war, but geez. Don't see this being an AP that's remembered fondly. "It's the skirmish AP" will be its legacy. You are either into that, or you are not. Most people don't play heroic fantasy TTRPGs for war skirmishes, there are other games for that that far better.

I may still use a few bits and pieces from it, but it's certainly not an off the shelf run for me. And an AP should be an off the shelf run. That's what I'm paying Paizo for when I buy an AP. Perhaps it's time to stop doing that.

It’s an off the shelf run for people who want to use the skirmish rules a lot. It’s like being annoyed that there’s kingdom management in Kingmaker.

Kavlor wrote:

This is how war would end, map named very close to what we get according person who got book. ** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **...

This is outcome is pretty close to what I predicted with the exception of Andoran annexing Eastern Cheliax outright; I had figured that the emphasis on setting up independent states meant they didn’t think they could get away with a pure land grab. I guess now they could say they’re doing it as a preventative measure to stop Hell from taking over.

On the subject of Abrogail’s stats, I think we need to remember that you’d basically never be fighting her alone. At a minimum you’ll have Gorthoklek (level 20) and Lrilatha (Level 21 if she still has her class levels), plus a whole heap of royal guards and whatever devils she summoned before the PCs got there.

“Inner Sea War” was the term we used for the war before we knew what it would officially be called. Right now the term specifically refers tot he naval engagements in the Inner Sea.

Anyways to get back onto the war between Andoran and Cheliax, or I guess in this case the conflict between Rahadoum and Cheliax.

I wonder who Khari ends up siding with, my guess would be the movement that leads to the creation of Corntyn as an independent state.

Because if they joined Rahadoum then anyone who follows a good deity regardless if it is Desna, Sheyln, Kurgess, Chaldiria, Kurgess, and any other deity will be horribly oppressed by the Pure Legion which seeks to enforce anti-theism. But on the other hand if they sided with Cheliax then well they are being oppressed by the forces of Hell, whose whole shtick is being the plane of oppression and tyranny. So it’s a choice between oppression or oppression.

Given that as of Hellfire Dispatches Khari is under siege by the Pure Legion which already controls the southern half of the city and no Chelaxian reinforcements seem to be coming, I’m not sure they get to choose their side here. If anything I expect retaking Khari to be Cornetyn’s major objective upon independence.

Trying to incorporate the individual events of people’s campaigns into the setting overall can’t work unless you’re willing to split the timeline, because everyone’s adventures are going to go differently depending on the group. Even if you survey people it’ll lead to the same problem as anyone who had a different outcome will feel left out.

Cheliax has always been poorly written IMO. The Big A is not stupid he would never put up with stupid people running his foothold in the Material Plane but time and time again Cheliax is written as if totally stupid inept people are running it. It would only take a bit of good writing to make Cheliax a good bad guy if the goody to shoes always beats the evil bad guy without any true resistance what's the point of having a bad guy to begin with? There are worse bad guys to fight TB is much worse and more dangerous to the world order than Cheliax ever could be.

Cheliax should crush Andoran in a war they have about even sized populations and Cheliax can call whole armies of devils to supplement their army. If Andoran left their boarders in large numbers TB would swoop in and have human snacks of the old and infirm. The whole of the Inner Sea should unite and eliminate TB then settle other wars.

I mean the entire point of the thread is that it’s not just Andoran but a whole anti-Chelish coalition. We still don’t know exactly who’s in it yet aside from Isgeri nationalists but as has been discussed earlier Rahadoum seems almost certain to take the opportunity to break Cheliax’s control over the Arch of Aroden (especially given that the Cheliax region guide teaser confirms it ultimately gets split off in the postwar settlement) and Hellbreakers has a plotline that in the canon version will almost certainly result in Oprak joining on Andoran’s side. So the numbers aren’t as lopsided as you might think.

Some of you guys seem to think the Thrunes losing is a done deal.

I wouldn't bet on that if I were you.

I can see Andoran not technically winning if Cheliax decides to go out with a bang and opens a hell portal on Egorian or something but I can’t see Cheliax not losing. They’re going to get locked into the Inner Sea, lose their primary naval base, and their frontline is going to collapse tot he point where enemy troops are going to push into their capital. Hard to see how they can come back from that without some other country swooping in to save their asses, and nobody who’s powerful enough has any reason to want to do it.

If Andoran is in Egorian by the close of the first year of the war, then it sounds like they basically have things in the bag? Seems a bit neat and tidy compared to how the war was advertised, I thought it was supposed to spill out and drag in everyone over a long period.

One thing mentioned in a different section of the book that could prove a very unexpected twist is that Nirmathas is actively trying to align itself with Cheliax in the hope they’ll provide protection from Molthune. This could mean that in the event of a possible escalation Molthune actually sides with Andoran while the Encarthan Alliance is pulled in to support Cheliax. Though I doubt that will actually happen because the other Alliance members have no reason to agree to that proposal.

I dunno. Seems very trivial for Thrune to avoid war here, she just has to like... Not nationalize them and stay quiet, since they don't represent Cheliax. So, I wonder if she actually wants to initiate it? Maybe she can argue that the defense of Breachill by Andoran forces against Chelaxian forces (the Hellknights in question) was an Andorian agression in Chelaxian territory, which... Can be seen as true with an odd legalese reading, I guess. If this can be sold properly as such, then maybe Taldor and Kyonin involving themselves in Andoran's behalf could make them look bad and as such, isolate Andoran in the war? So Thrune thinks she could have a chance? Sounds kinda flimsy, to be honest.

It’s only trivial if you assume that Andoran doesn’t want war, which seems like a bad assumption. After all, they’re the ones actively trying to destabilize Isger and get it out from under Cheliax. A scenario where Cheliax doesn’t go to war is one where Andoran wins anyway because they just keep escalating the situation.

And I don’t think it’s “flimsy” that Taldor and Kyonin aren’t going to support an offensive war against Cheliax, given that they don’t stand to gain anything from it and both of them have bigger concerns. They probably do get involved eventually, but only after the conflict spirals out of control and ends up dragging in everybody through cascading alliances. (Which is what I always assumed to be what the WWI comparison was about, not the tone.)

I wonder if more participating countries beyond Andoran/Cheliax/Rahadoum/Molthune/Isger can be predicted through the presence of war shards? The new Shining Kingdoms book mentions an Eagle Knight firearms development program that uses war shards, meaning Andoran’s invasion of Isger might actually be driven by the desire to both gain Breachill as a strategic resource and deny it to Cheliax.

Scuttlefish wrote:

Is the killing of the Andoran citizen in Breachill and the subsequent Andoran invasion of Isger that’s mentioned in the new article supposed to be the inciting incident of the war or is this separate?

Gotta link? Hard to interpret a text sight unseen.

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo70cy9

Is the killing of the Andoran citizen in Breachill and the subsequent Andoran invasion of Isger that’s mentioned in the new article supposed to be the inciting incident of the war or is this separate?

I’d love to see a proper war AP of one human nation against another instead of it being about monsters, though I suspect something like that is in the works already.

Something set in Taldor or Minkai or Numeria after the PCs of the old APs shook things up, we’ve been to Kintargo a few times after Rebels so no reason why not.

The quest for the Sun Orchid Elixir seems like an obvious hook that hasn’t been taken advantage of yet.

One where the moon explodes. Nuff said.

Hooray!

New Ameiko art?