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Having read the AP and listened to the GCP, a huge issue with Giantslayer seems to be that the giants are left to raise their armies while the rest of the world is oblivious aside from five or six amateurs who take it upon themselves to infiltrate.

It would be more realistic given their nature for the giants to be laying waste to the surrounding area, outright destroying settlements and starting wars. I got the impression that the writers handwaved the fact that it makes far more sense to send the entire army of a neighbouring nation to face the Storm Tyrant to give the players a reason to be the centre of the story.

That said, the Tyrant is supposed to be uniting the various giants which is something that has never been done before. Instead of purporting to care about unity what if he were using them as cannon fodder? He could be using the races he doesn't particularly care about to rape and pillage and keep any threats busy while he builds his power. After the raid on Trunau, a group of characters involving the PCs realise this and the armies in the surrounding lands are too busy campaigning against the giants at short notice to listen so they have the PCs go in to enemy territory and possibly recruit allies at places like Redlake Fort along the way.

I'd like to submit Urdal, a dwarf cleric with spells leaning towards the necromancy side of things. He starts the AP as a good or neutral character however he has spells that hint at past evil, or at least a past attempt to start down that path.

I thought it might be interesting to have a character who's abilities are at odds with his idea of himself and with his personality. He's stuck with certain spells and he has to figure out how to utilise them.

SMNGRM wrote:

In all honesty it seems like Giantslayer suffers from the same issue I see with most other APs - third act problems.

What are third act problems supposed to mean in the context of an AP? Is it derived from the three act structure, because I'm not necessarily sure that those apply to well on APs.

Just broadly referencing the three act structure. I think most do generally adhere to the structure somewhat, even though they're spread over five books.

I haven't been on the forum in a few weeks and I didn't expect this thread to get as big as it has.

In all honesty it seems like Giantslayer suffers from the same issue I see with most other APs - third act problems.

Is there something inherent to Pathfinder and maybe D&D in that the players become so powerful after a certain point that it is difficult to create limitations for them? There's something really attractive about players starting off in a world that's ready to kill them at every turn, having to strategise against potential enemies and carefully select new spells etc. Once higher level play begins, I become more and more disinterested.

Something very Dwarf heavy. Lots of underground exploration, ruined tunnels, reclaiming abandoned subterranean outposts and the like.

I was writing a homebrew AP which got away from me. It was to do with necromancers exploiting what they saw as stored energy beneath the earth at the site of many bloody ancient wars, realising that as humans they had no real connection to the earth and instead resorting to experimenting on the local subterranean races like dwarves. Of course, as a fringe group of outcasts they were quashed easily and everyone carried on ignoring that dark spot in their history.

Book One: Started with the players in a town situated on a mountain pass, controlled by a benevolent dwarven smuggler queen who has installed herself as mayor. The town is seeing heightened attacks from bandits, the town's forces are taking a beating, the trade route is closed to being shut down so the players are hired by the mayor to head in to the mountains and light a dwarven distress beacon in the hope that there are some dwarven nomads nearby who still remember what the beacons signify. Unbeknownst to everyone, the tunnels leading to the beacon are the home of the descendant of a dwarf woman who was experimented on by the necromancers and is suffering from a madness because of this. He is working with the town's political enemies to gain control of the town and the trade route.

Book two would see the players traveling to a town controlled by a rival smuggler in an attempt to disrupt the political plot to gain control of the area.

Essentially the AP was about a part of the world with a chequered past, and discovering that the origins of the culture, traditions, local festivals and holidays etc were rooted in something much darker than they seem. Although worshipping the necromancers and their gods has been outlawed, the fact that things slipped through the net and became a seemingly innocent part of local life kept the magic alive, and of course caused it to resurface during a time of political uncertainty. They would be trying to prevent the reformation of a cult that doesn't yet realise that it's a cult.

Of course, like all APs I was much more interested in the earlier chapters than the later ones.

It does sound like a pretty solid classical fantasy campaign, provided that chapters 4 and 6 don't suffer from linear dungeon slog syndrome.

I can't help but shake the feeling that it's a lite version of a full Dwarf AP though. I suppose Paizo could tie in a sequel similar to Jade Regent following on from RotRL, however it seems unlikely.

What are the logic flaws?

I'm considering GMing Giantslayer for a new party after we've done a one shot to get used to the rules. The players are in to classic LotR style fantasy type stuff and I think it puts an interesting twist on that by essentially starting them in an outpost behind enemy lines rather than in a sleepy woodland town.

The problem is that I don't see much love for it when I'm reading forums for reviews. Is there something inherently wrong with the AP, is it because it's still relatively new, or is it backlash for traditional fantasy after Paizo did something so out there with Iron Gods?

I'm listening to the Glass Cannon podcast, and {spoiler=spoiler}I've just caught up to part way through the keelboat section (They're about to stop off at the first trading post) I quite like the flavour of taking a river boat ride without committing to a full on pirate AP.[/spoiler] The way they are playing the AP is really making me want to run it.

Does it get a lot worse after that?

I'll put money on that 'banned' mini being one of those weird Nazi mini-figs that you see in Europe sometimes.

Not much love for Giantslayer?

Thats the one I most want to play. Maybe I'm misguided?

Avoid Giantslayer. There's already a very good podcast of it.

Looks pretty good. I'd have gone with an irregular base though because it kind of looks like it's stuck to a CD.

I decided on Everflame because I want something that can get done in one shot.

I think I'm going for the change that most people seem to do, which is that players aren't teens coming of age, but rather they have to go to the crypt to rescue the teenagers who stumbled in to the trap. I didn't want to make the module open ended, I wanted some closure at the end.

I'm thinking of adding a few side quests at the start, basically detailing the teenagers who went, and offering a reward from the families for each one who is brought back safely.

I think I'm going to make the twist that the tomb was once under a minor curse, and the town sent teams up to it yearly to clear it of undead. One year they decided enough was enough and had a cleric lift the curse. To keep the curse at bay, the cleric created two matching Everflames. One was in the crypt, and the other was in town. Once a year the flame in town must be fueled by the flame from the crypt in order for the crypt to remain under the town's control.

Edit: Now that the crypt is benign, the town use it as a coming of age ritual for aspiring adventurers. They pick several every year to go and fetch the flame for them.

This year one of the teenagers was the rebellious son of a wealthy couple who are actively disliked in the town, partly because their son causes trouble for everyone and partly because they're just shady. The father is secretly a necromancer, the son gets chosen to go to the crypt and steals his dad's robe of bones, intending to somehow break the curse and cause some havoc.

The players go to the crypt, figure out that it was the kid who did it (but it got out of control when he raised the skeletal champion), save the kids who haven't died and retrieve the flame in the process. I was going to have Roldare be one of the teenagers who's clearly out of his/her depth. When they get back, the father is arrested and they've saved the day.

Are there any problems with this? I was also going to make the shadow something with a similar CR, by the way. Maybe a coffer corpse or one of those CR 3 flesh oozes.

Quick question. Are there any actual hooks to get the players in to the dungeon in Thornkeep, or is it more sandboxy with them following the rumours?

I don't think we have anyone who can deal with those encounters, although one player is only finalising his character on the day. I'll replace them with something a bit more beatable.

Thornkeep looks like exactly what I'm after! I'd never heard of it before, probably because it was from a Kickstarter.

I'll probably introduce Ameiko from RotRL as a link to the AP too.

I've downgraded from GMing a complete homebrew setting, to Rise of the Runelords and now to a one-shot module just to reduce the strain on myself. I have new players and I was probably asking too much of them to commit to the same character and story for months, if not years, of playing.

Anyway, I want to go for a Level 1 module with a classic fantasy feel. If they enjoy it and want to carry on, I'll probably see if I can continue it in to the beginning of an adventure path.

I'm not interested in We Be Goblins, otherwise I'm looking for a one-shot dungeon crawl preferably with goblins or a similar race, maybe some undead. I know the classic level 1 trope is fighting rats in a basement but to be honest I don't want a whole module of critters, but not too many of the more esoteric monsters either. I might be asking too much.

I've done a lot of searching, but I still don't know what's worth playing and what looks better than it actually is.

We be Gnolls. I don't feel like I see enough Gnolls.

I think it was probably their equivalent of sneaking off in to the woods, or a sort of 'make out point' type thing.

Anyone could be lurking in both those places. The danger of it probably has something to do with it too. Add to that the fact that it is implied that interracial relationships aren't looked on too kindly in Trunau, as well as the fact that Trunau natives are accustomed to generally uncomfortable and traumatising events, and the plague house just ends up being their version of that.

I'm about to start running RotRL with slightly more challenging encounters for a party who are all basically new:

Ranger - Focusing on ranged combat
Paladin - Doing the whole white knight thing
Druid
Witch
Cavalier

We might also have a Rogue. My problem is with the Cavalier. He's a Dwarf and I can't really see a mount being useful for most of the campaign. In addition, I'm really struggling to figure out what a Cavalier (Especially unmounted) can do that a Paladin can't.

Anyway, I'm toying with actually allowing the Gunslinger class. I was against it previously, however I've been reading up and listening to a few podcasts etc and I'm coming round to the idea. The problem is that the vocal majority seem to think that Gunslingers will outshine every other class and I really don't want any of the players getting a bad first impression of Pathfinder because they find themselves useless in combat.

I'm also wondering if a Gunslinger would work as part of the above team, in place of the Cavalier if I were to suggest it to him.

So I guess my question is how difficult would it be for a new player, who doesn't have an awareness of optimisation at least for now, to break the class? I'm aware that there are a ton of rules regarding the class which are intended to constantly mini-nerf it and I intend to keep on top of them. Also, I'd probably adhere to the 'guns are incredibly rare and expensive, and you're lucky to find one that isn't a rusty piece of junk' idea.

Still though, all I can find are forum posts that descend in to bitterness with no clear conclusion.

I made a spreadsheet with Sandpoint shops for my players, maybe you can use it.

Just curious. Why does a full, masterwork plate dragonhide armour cost 1800, when on the pfsrd it says that the same but non-masterwork costs 3300?

SMNGRM wrote:

Might be asking too much, but is there a first level Half-Orc ranger around somewhere?

We've got half-orcs and rangers aplenty. Half-orc rangers though? I don't think we have one of those. And 1st-level characters are few and far apart.

You may want to consider Manny the Mancatcher. He's a 1st-level human ranger, but it likely won't take much to convert him to a half-orc.

I think I'll steal that. I'm throwing a few 'rival' parties of adventurers in to RotRL to give my players some competition and perhaps some side quests. I like the added flavour that the dogs give. Thanks!

Might be asking too much, but is there a first level Half-Orc ranger around somewhere?

To be completely honest, I've been listening to the glass cannon Giantslayer podcast and there's a lot made of racism towards Half-Orcs, and the general racial make up of the town. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with putting a Kitsune in in terms of one just showing up one day, but it kind of gets in the way of the race stuff.

The attitude to Half-Orcs is actually a really well written part of the story and forms a lot of the intrigue in the first volume. It makes sense to allow the core races, but if someone throws in something more unusual then realistically there's going to have to be some reckoning with the townspeople's attitude towards that race and I can't see it not becoming a point of contention.

I guess I'd probably be annoyed with it based on the fact that it unnecessarily causes more work as a GM (And because it sounds like the player is doing it to be a special little princess).

You weren't being lectured, though. I thought the response was fairly balanced.

I'm not sure what you mean about the rule of three. Can you clarify.

I mean, I know what the rule is, but how does it apply to Pathfinder?

I really wanted to throw the players in to a dungeon straight away and was trying to figure out how to do that without rushing through all the beginner stuff and minimising the things that are supposed to connect them to Sandpoint.

I think I figured it out. I'm going to essentially turn the Desecrated Vault encounter in to a mausoleum/crypt type thing. I'll keep the Festival and Flames and Die Dog Die goblins and throw them in there instead. My story will be that Nualia stole the remains a few days ago while the town was busy with the festival, but some goblins broke rank, stayed in the crypt and have been grave robbing.

Father Zantus has noticed desecrated graves and strange things going on in the graveyard and he doesn't know how to deal with it, particularly with the town still recovering from The Late Unpleasantness. In a lapse of judgement he takes a drink at The Rusty Dragon, where he ends up confiding in Ameiko and Aldern.

Because Ameiko and Aldern are both pretty obsessed with adventurers, it makes sense that they'd decide to take the law in to their own hands and pick out some adventurers to handle the problem, rather than taking it to Hemlock and risking alerting the town during the festivities. They decide on the PCs and send them in to the graveyard while Zantus is making his speech.

That's fine, I'm running the challenging encounters from that other thread, and I'm not convinced the rogue will actually show up.

I think we're going with:

Human Male CG Ranger
Human Male LN Witch
Dwarf Male CN Cavalier
Half Elf Male LG Paladin
Gnome Male LN Druid
Elf Male CG Rogue (May convince him to take Archaeologist Bard instead)

Anything I need to worry about?> Biggest issue, I think, is the lack of reliable healing at first level, particularly if the Witch and Druid decide to take offensive/buffing/crowd control spells.

One thing that is perhaps puzzling is that the PCs are considered "heroes" after the goblin attack. When you get down to it, the PCs kill or chase off maybe a dozen goblins (five definite along with the goblin dog, and six other potentials). Admittedly, that's the PCs accounting for half of the attacking force (30 goblins in all, six with Tsuto), but I suspect it would help build the story of the adventurers if they are actively protecting people.

Fortunately, I purchased the Sandpoint Townsfolk Paper Minis and printed them out on stiff paper. While the puppy did get his teeth on the three bouncers (what a horrifying fate, a giant slavering beast eating them alive!) the rest of the townsfolk are safe from the pup and about half are currently assembled... which gives me a good-sized crowd to build on. The starting map will be full of townsfolk, and even as I have many of them flee as quickly as they can, I can also keep some of the children and a couple parents in the area, unable to easily evacuate.

This should also increase the urgency of the PCs. They're not just going to be fighting for their lives... they're fighting to protect people two of them have known all their lives (and the third for over half a dozen years).

In turn, this improves the legend of the PCs. They not only account for half of the goblins, they actively save a half dozen people who watch them fight. And including the pawns also lets me do such horrible things as having the PCs watch townsfolk die even as they are busy fighting their first three goblins. And for all I know, I might even have someone do something stupid in an effort to save a life or two.

-------

I've also chosen to swap out equipment. I honestly cannot imagine anyone buying goblin equipment - not even a mastercraft horsechopper. That is, however, a 300-gold value item... which could be replicated with a 20-charge Wand of Bardic Cure Light Wounds, and help provide the PCs with some extra healing which should last through Burnt Offerings.

I've not started playing yet, but none of my players know each other (or only know each other in passing). I'm going with the angle that the players didn't do a particularly impressive job of defending Sandpoint, but the town guard made a bit of a mess of it so in comparison they look fairly heroic. They're aware of this, it gives them a reason to try and get away from the crowds of admirers and they will all end up gravitating towards each other simply because they're tired of all the attention.

It also gives them a connection to Belor Hemlock, who has a begrudging respect for them but isn't too happy about having his men's training questioned by the rest of the townspeople, and a reason for other NPCs to consult them rather than the town guards.

Edit: I also have a player who's flavoured as a smuggler and is in it for the money (He happens to be a dwarf, so the hatred of goblins is enough of a hook to get him in to the story) so I imagine he'll be overflowing with greed points soon enough.

Is there a working cast of characters document floating round? I got linked to a post in this thread, but the document I was looking for seems to have been deleted.

I hope I'm okay asking for advice on changes here. I didn't want to start a new thread.

I'm going to run RotRL for my group of 6. I think I'm going to substitute the encounters for the 'challenging encounters' detailed in the thread in this subforum, simply because my players like combat and pushing things round on a map.

I wanted to play Crypt of the Everflame, but I didn't want to get stuck having to prepare a new module every few sessions. That felt clunky. I'd rather homebrew if I was doing that.

I was wondering if the idea to make the Crypt of the Everflame challenge part of the Swallowtail Festival ever works? I was thinking of having the players step up and defeat the goblins, gain some notoriety for it, and Belor Hemlock decides to send them off on a quest to get them out of town because they're making his men look bad.

Or I'd just play CotE more vanilla and have it as the main attraction in the festival, introducing some goblins in the dungeon itself.

My main issue with this is that it immediately takes the players out of Sandpoint, which they should be invested in.

Otherwise I'd play the AP as is, more or less.

Thoughts?

Hi,

I'm still in the early stages of GMing, although I've absorbed as much information as I can outside of actually sitting at a table, and it's for 5 or 6 players with varying levels of experience in tabletop games.

I'm looking to introduce the players to the idea of creating and developing a character, leveling up, choosing skills to suit the adventure they're on etc. They're all expecting relatively high fantasy, and to be honest that's what I prefer. I don't mind a bit of flavor from other genres, however the Pathfinder world gives me problems that I seem to experience with every designed-by-committee fantasy setting in that there are inevitably aspects that I find silly, even in a made up universe. Off the top of my head I'm thinking about the WWI thing in RoW and Iron Gods in its entirety so I would like to avoid those and any others that deviate too much from straight up fantasy.

I'd also like to do a lot of dungeon crawling and dump the players in to skill and combat-heavy action as soon as possible. I do like the idea of using maps, and I think this would give the players who are more comfortable pushing tokens around a board something familiar to do while they're acclimatising to roleplaying. Mummy's Mask seems like the best for dungeon crawling, but again it's too far from traditional fantasy for new players, I think. I'm also only familiar with it from second hand accounts.

Ideally I'd like a fair amount of fantasy tropes. Goblins/Orcs. Undead if possible. Kobolds, gnolls etc etc. Some of paizos interesting monsters. (It sometimes kind of annoys me how many encounters involve rats, bats, dogs and ruffians from the local docks)

I'm not a hundred percent familiar with all the APs, although I have several of them. I'd be happy to buy more.

Here's the ones I'm familiar enough with to consider -

Giantslayer (Lots of combat, love the setting although there seems to be at least an hour of roleplay at the beginning and I think a main criticism is that it devolves in to tedious fights against similar giants)
RotRL (Straight in to the action, but then seems to slow down and I'm not sure there's much in the way of dungeons although I only read the first book about two years ago)
S&S (The boat is interesting, starts with some combat, only read the first book so I don't know where it goes. Firearms could be an issue)
CC (Lots of dungeons, lots of Undead, perhaps not good for martial characters?)

Here's the ones I'm looking to avoid -

Iron Gods (Too sci-fi)
Kingmaker (Too much sandbox. Mass combat and kingdom building rules aren't representative of the game)
Jade Regent (Eastern flavour seems silly. I hear that the caravan rules are horribly broken)
WotR (We have a morally suspect character)

Players are going for druid, cavalier, witch, rogue, ranger and paladin if that makes a difference.