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Agreed on basically everything, especially the armor part.


They only thing that hurts me, is that I have to give up a lvl1 feat to be a half-elf or half-orc :(


@RPing a priest without abilities:
Ok, you probably CAN do it, but then your character gains the second level and BAM, now they are DIVINE spellcasters? Bye, immersion.

Midnightoker wrote:
Just so I understand this, What exactly did you do in PF1 to solve this problem?

That's my problem. Nothing. I begged my DM to raise the starting level to 2.

Can anyone actually come up with an argument as to WHY it should not be allowed to have balanced archetype dedication options on first level?


Rameth wrote:
It's something that takes time, and it should.

Of course it takes time, and that is exactly why multiclass characters should be possible from the 1st level. Because they had their whole lives before the campaign to gain the necessary abilities.

Tholomyes wrote:
I can RP the Barbarian as a priest, and just wait until level 2 to have that apply mechanically.

No, you can't roleplay a cleric without having the abilities of a cleric. That is roleplaying a mental illness or a charlatan.

Tholomyes wrote:
Or [...] have the Barbarian actually be a STR focused cleric, and not mechanically get Rage until later

That would be slightly better for roleplaying, but mechanically far from ideal. You might roleplay the primal instincts being dormant until something happens. But again, is this something every barb subclasser suffers from? Oh wait, there isn't even a barb archetype!

Tholomyes wrote:
Not to mention many classes don't get first level feats (and the ones that do tend to also have second level feats that are more impactful, so giving up a second level feat is more of a commitment than giving up a first level one), or that it would incentivize humans even more over the other ancestries (since they could multiclass, and pick up a class feat at first level, if they chose).

All this can be resolved with proper balance of the low level archetype features.

Tholomyes wrote:
it's not like 1e characters didn't have to wait until second level to multiclass, anyway

Why create 2e if not to improve upon 1e?

Bottom line is:
Early multiclassing should not be any better than not multiclassing at all. But it should be an option.


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Hi, the following comes from a Pathfinder lover who has bought many books, played and DM'd several campaigns.

First off, the whole concept of taking out of class options instead of advancing in two classes separately is great.
- It gets rid of the "1st level in another class is better than 7th in mine" problem
- Advancement is more streamlined
- It's practically impossible to make something that is off flavor

What I found to be one minor flaw, is the balance.
Now I know that taking outside-of-class features should be somewhat worse than your in-class alternatives. Sure.

The problem is, level 6 and above we have "Gain one SUBCLASS feat. For the purposes of meeting its prerequisites,
your SUBCLASS level is equal to your actual level."
Pretty strong eh? However, the current requirement arrangement is really rough for low level characters.

If the adventure starts at 1st lvl and a player has a character concept that requires multiclassing, story-wise, they're screwed. How can a barbarian become a priest over a week? (My favorite character of all time is a half-orc barb that is also a tribal cleric of some god of strength, varying by setting).

Another thing is that often you must trade 4th lvl feats for 1st level features.

The solution is pretty simple.
1) Make Dedication feats accessible from the 1st level. Some things may need to be tweaked around it, but it's well doable.
2) Make 1st level archetype class feats and features accessible on 2nd level. Nothing that scales obviously.
3) Make other feats and features accessible as though the SUBCLASS level was HALF your character level.