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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber. 488 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.




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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Links first:
- Black and white manual fill only - no calculation (v1.0)
- Black and white with calculation (v1.2)
- Color manual fill only - no calculation (v1.0)
- Color with calculation (v1.2)

I'm creating a new thread for this rather than having it buried close to 200 posts deep in the main character sheet announcement thread.

Quoted below is a post I made in the character sheet thread. I ended up going ahead and making the "manual fill only" version for anyone who hates automatic calculation. I also ended up updating the calculation sheets one more time to fix a bug in calculation order that made Arcana work only intermittently (thanks MaxAstro for pointing out it wasn't working).

The text/images on the sheets themselves are unchanged; it's just the form fields that are added.

Quote:

I wasn't super pleased with the fillable version that was floating around; some little things were bugging me like some unaligned/sloppy field placement, borders left on some checkboxes, etc.

I created fully-fillable versions of the original sheets with automatic calculations for basically anything with a proficiency (AC, weapons, saves, perception, skills, class DC, spells), Maximum HP, and bulk capacity. Proficiencies use the little TEML boxes for calculations, so checking them on the sheet is actually relevant.

Because I hate automated sheets that make it impossible to use fillable fields that don't change much (if ever) and or print default numbers in the fields you might want to manually fill out because they change - say, if you're only printing a new sheet every few levels and are otherwise filling in numbers by hand with a pencil...most of the automation gets disabled if you leave certain fields blank. Level is required for anything with proficiencies, for instance. If you leave the ability scores blank, nothing dependent on them will calculate. Checkboxes are there to disable calculation of bulk or HP, but there are also fairly easy ways to adjust the calculations if you have a feat or something that would affect them.

There are some other weird considerations, like it's possible to override the options in drop-down boxes for things. Level (in case you want to just keep having numbers go up for some reason, or you want to do a level 0 thing without a class). Ability scores, in case you're rolling up stats or something and need odd scores below 18. Ancestry/Class HP, in case future ancestries/classes have new HP, or if you want to add one-off or per-level permanent changes to Max HP.

Some care was taken for lots of little things for real-world usability. For example, to make sure that fonts would fit/be aligned appropriately and text sizes would change/multiple lines would be used if boxes had specifically limited space. Tab field order is a compromise between navigating the sheet quickly without a mouse and ease of mass changes. Tooltips explain some of the fields with some automation, so they're actually going to generally be relevant. At worst, they'll be blank or only be the all-caps names Acrobat provided as an initial starting point for automated form field detection. Fields all have relevant names, so it's easy to tell what field is what if you're making changes. The different spell traditions have slightly different shapes instead of checks in the little "book" just because I thought it was more fun.

I'll probably never update these again. It was close to 20 hours of work, mostly justified as doing it to learn how Acrobat works, since I've never used it before. I also don't write javascript, so if there are any eccentricities in my approach, that's probably why.

It's likely not perfectly "fillable" if you want to manually type (not write post-print) in every single field due to the automation on some fields that won't play nice. If people reaaaallly want a version with my carefully-aligned fields but zero automation, I might do it; basically it would involve removing scripts (pretty quick) and replacing a couple drop-down boxes with vanilla text fields, but I'm not particularly interested in maintaining this. Unless Hero Lab Online is terrible (I would describe it as "mediocre" for the playtest) I'll probably use it, anyway.

You can totally break some of the automation scripts if you put in really weird values (text when numbers or blank are expected), but it's just a character sheet, so that's fine.

Feel free to use the automation/form fields as a starting point for any altered versions you might have. If you just changed the background appearances on your own (colors/etc.) and have Acrobat, it's very easy to use the "replace page" feature under Organize Pages to just swap your versions in underneath the form fields. That may work with other editors. If you've moved fields around (i.e. Datalore), your changes would obviously require more work for the fields and calculation scripts, but this might still save you a bunch of time (particularly on the unaltered pages).


Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Hey, good Paizo customer service folks. Like a lot of people, I was unable to convince the shopping cart that I wanted to start my adventure path subscription with Age of Ashes 1 and not Tyrant's Grasp 6.

Please do your magic and remove the Tyrant's Grasp AP from my upcoming shipment. Thanks!


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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

TLDR: The guidelines in the character wealth/party treasure by level tables are hard to use at low levels due to lack of relevant items.

I realize that there aren't as many items in the playtest as there will be in the final rules, the Character Wealth table in Playtest Rulebook (page 348) brings this issue.

For level 4, the table says permanent items of 1x 3rd level, 2x 2nd level, and 2x 1st level, and 30 gp.

Okay, so I was testing it by equipping a monk and I couldn't find anything 3rd level that was actually relevant for that character. Monks are weird, though, and the 2 2nd level slots were easily filled with bracers of armor and handwraps of mighty strikes. Maybe 3rd level's just a gap here.

Level 1, though, only has a single permanent magic item. It's a dull gray aeon stone, and it doesn't actually do anything except orbit a character's head and function as a target for light or continual flame or something. It costs 5 gold, which is 1 more than the wolf fang trinket.

Okay, that's weird. Ah, but wait! There's one other line in the text that's super important here:

p.347 wrote:
When assigning level 1 permanent items, your best options are weapons, armor, and gear from chapter 6 worth between 10 and 20 gp.

Oh, cool, that helps. Let's see what it includes.

Everything in Equipment chapter between 10 and 20 gp (100 and 200 sp):
Splint mail (125 sp)
Half plate (175 sp)
Composite longbow (200 sp)
Composite shortbow (140 sp)
Expert artisan's tools (level 2, 200 sp)
Expert climbing kit (level 2, 150 sp)
Expert disguise kit (level 2, 150 sp)
Expert fishing tackle (level 2, 150 sp)
Expert healer's tools (level 2, 200 sp)
Expert lock (level 2, 100 sp)
Expert magnifying glass (200 sp)
Expert manacles (level 2, 150 sp)
Expert repair kit (level 2, 150 sp)
Expert snare kit (level 2, 200 sp)
Spyglass (200 sp)
Formula, 6th level item (125 sp)
Formula, 7th level item (180 sp)
Lodging (1 day), Extravagant suite for 6 (100 sp)
Light barding for small/medium animal (100 sp)
Light barding for large animal (200 sp)

That...wasn't that helpful after all. It's mostly just expert tools, and bows/heavy armor. Never mind that nothing in that list is actually a level 1 item, because everything in the chapter is level 0 unless otherwise noted, and the only notes are for a bunch of expert things that are level 2. Sadly, the same issues exist for guidelines for distributing permanent items on the "Party Treasure by Level" table.

Maybe it works better at higher levels, but these guidelines seem more confusing than just giving gold and capping the highest-level permanent items someone could start with. I expect I'll end up giving such feedback in the scenario-specific survey when that comes up.

Comment on Doomsday Dawn scenario character creation guideline that's probably not actually a spoiler and may include an important clarification that people might miss but I'll embed it anyway:
It's actually worse than the rulebook table, because the scenario guidelines don't call out the difference between permanent and consumable items, so that 3rd level item might end up being a healing potion worth 8 gp and be really out of line compared to a 60 gp staff or a 25 gp +1 armor rune). It was actually this question that made me look for the table in the core rulebook, where I found that everything matched so the scenario must have meant "permanent" itmes.


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TLDR: High jump is extremely difficult, despite the payoff for accomplishing it being negligible. The skill feats Powerful Leap and Quick Jump interact oddly, and Quick Jump makes the (already weak) monk feat Flying Kick entirely redundant. Long jump has similar problems, but doesn't use a fixed DC so it's less egregious.

According to the difficulty classes section:

Difficulty Classes wrote:
A high-difficulty skill DC can be overcome by a character who has increased their proficiency rank in a skill but doesn’t have a high score in the associated ability (like if a typical rogue were attempting an Athletics check). This is the default difficulty in Pathfinder. High-difficulty DCs are a good choice for skill checks that require only one character succeed for the party to benefit.

The "High jump" athletics skill use has a fixed DC of 30 to jump 2 extra vertical feet beyond the "Leap" (at the cost of another action and 10' of movement beforehand). By the chart of skill DCs by level and difficulty, this makes it a high difficulty task for a level 12 character. By way of comparison, this is also the difficulty of an athletics check to move an Immovable Rod (can also be accomplished with 8000 pounds of pressure).

If you get a 40 on your high jump check, then you get another 3 feet (up to 8) and an extra 5 horizontal feet. The leap action, by contrast, doesn't require any check at all.

The "Powerful Leap" skill feat makes the check-less Leap action grant 5 feet of vertical movement. It's a 2nd level feat despite granting what effectively is better than an autosuccess on what is apparently a high-DC 12th level task. It also basically negates the benefit of "Quick Jump" (1st level), which lets you skip the initial movement/extra action cost for high jump and long jump. It does absolutely nothing if you want to roll high jump to get that last 3' that's theoretically possible on a critical success (for those level 20 characters that need to dunk over an 8' giant, I guess).

Long jump is almost as bad, in that 10' more horizontal movement is DC 25 and 15' more movement is DC 30 (it's only +5'/+10' for a character with 30 speed). Powerful leap adds 5' to your Leap, but similarly does nothing to the DCs of long jump.

How far does this problem go?:

I started looking at these because I was looking at the monk and wanted to build a super-mobility elf monk. There might be other options with other classes, but I haven't reviewed them all yet and put forth this monk as my example. At level 4, this monk has a speed of 50 (Elf with Nimble ancestry feat for 35 at level 1, Fleet general feat and Incredible Movement at level 3 for 50). Crane Stance at level 1 gives an additional 5' horizontal or 2' vertical movement, as well as an extra +4 conditional bonus on the high/long jump athletics checks. Taking Powerful Leap (skill feat) and Dancing Leaf (Monk feat) at level 4, they interact to let the monk take the bog-standard Leap (single action) to jump 12' vertically or 30' horizontally, with no chance of failure (and take no falling damage if adjacent to a wall). At this level, there is still only a 5% chance of success of making a high jump roll without Crane Stance (bumps up to 20% with crane stance and a 5% chance for critical success, finally netting that last 3 vertical feet), despite taking an extra action to run up. There's a 55% chance of critically failing and falling prone (35% with Crane Stance). Technically basic failure/success would both give the same result of 5' vertical, because of powerful leap.

And this seems pretty optimal for level 4.

The Level 7 monk and the 15' vertical:
At 7th level, we take Master in athletics, and get the 7th level item Boots of Bounding, giving another 3' vertical, 5' horizontal, and +2 item bonus to high jump and long jump. A standard leap now gives us 15' vertical or 35' horizontal. This monk is the leaping king. A high jump attempt with a +19 (in crane stance) now only fails 55% of the time (again, success/failure are the same due to powerful leap), and critical failure is only on a natural 1. And a critical success, for that last 3', is still only possible on a natural 20, for 18 beautiful vertical feet.

It doesn't really get better:
At 8th level, the monk could take Wall run and run 60' straight up a wall.

But let's keep going. Level 12, where 30 is high DC:
Our hopping specialist now has 20 str, and with the boots, expert athletics, and crane stance, that's a +25 to jumps. Failure is down to 25%, critical failure still sits at 5%, and critical success is all the way up to 30%! Truly, that extra 3' is in reach 30% of the time! Somewhere, surely, we used another skill feat for quick jump, so all these attempts at high jumps don't require the extra action/run up.

Level 14: Now we get the level 14 greater boots of bounding, for that delicious +4 to jumps. It's better than the belt of giant strength (another level 14 item) because obviously we only care about jumping. We're Sitting pretty with a +29 to jumps in crane stance, we no longer have any chance of falling prone on a critical, and we're up to a 50% chance of getting that extra 3' for bothering to try for the critical success!

At level 20, we hit strength 22 naturally, but we bought that belt of giant strength, so that makes 24. We've been legendary in athletics since level 15. We are truly tops at hops. Crane stance and the greater boots gives us a total of 38. We have a 90% chance of getting a critical success for that precious last 3 vertical feet we've been chasing since level 7. Everyone else is wasting daily resonance on fly, or climbing, or whatever else might bypass these vertical jumps that are more than 15' and less than 18'.

In summary, it's ridiculous to try to get a success on high jump, never mind a critical success. Powerful leap completely supplants it, effectively, as long as you're willing to forego the possibility of a critical success (which technically exists but requires a lot of additional resources, is unreliable until really high levels, and only gets 3' more anyway...which is nothing if you're dumping this many resources into jumping in the first place).

Jumping monks and the problem with flying kick in particular:
And while it's technically off topic, the monk Flying Kick feat suffers from all this, too. It only does something if you're making a full long jump action (because it's a two-action activity and leap is a single action so you could strike anyway). Quick jump is a level 1 skill feat that makes it superfluous. AND it's super situational anyway. How often are you going to long jump into a strike? Just jumping over some difficult terrain or something? Flying kick was thematically awesome in pathfinder unchained and actually useful by granting movement during a flurry of blows, and now it's just weirdly pointless because long jump is mostly pointless (and the other level 4 monk feat, Dancing Leaf, certainly helps make long jump even more situational).

Level 1 arcane/primal jump spell:
Skips this whole thing, giving a straight 30' vertical/horizontal jump. But that's a limited resource, and I skipped spells/consumables, because they'll almost always be better spend finding ways to fly (although the same could be said for the boots, which at least increased land speed).


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So my party has been making some odd friends, and they're keen on putting them into positions of power. Next session will start with the establishment of their kingdom, and I'm a little torn on how to handle some of their NPC leaders.

It's worth noting that the party is almost entirely evil (the one exception being the oracle, who started as neutral good but I've ruled has shifted to chaotic good based on his actions). Aside from the fact that they're probably going to kill Bokken for not helping them fight a shambling mound that attacked them at his hut, they haven't really done anything particularly evil (other than try to build up a power base...which is kind of the point of the campaign anyway).

So they're evil, but it mostly has manifested in their attempts to recruit everyone they run across.

They befriended the grig and the faerie dragon, although it hasn't occurred to them to look into their stats as NPC leaders, though mostly because they don't seem interested in the affairs of the "bigginses." Same goes for the Boggard, whom they actually took to Jhod to cure his mangled limb. They recruited Kressle right out of the gate, who was the only surviving bandit from the first battle or the Thorn River Camp (and thus I used as the source of all the info against the Stag Lord). They got Chief Sootscale to swear fealty to them, and likely would have kept Tartuk around (they liked the nefariousness of his plans) were he not already suicidal.

They recruited Howl-of-the-North-Wind before they even got to the Stag Lord's fort (I just filled in the entire Greenbelt, since it looked like they might explore some of the hexes from RRR before going to face the Stag Lord. Literally the main thing they wanted to know from their Knowledge: Nature rolls was, "Is it sentient?" and then they just started talking/rolling diplomacy. The summoner in the party has a pretty high diplomacy modifier, and a trait allowing rerolls if he misses by more than five. Even starting at Hostile, they've managed to roll/role-play their way to some improbable allies.

They befriended Auchs before the battle (while dressed as bandits), used Kressle to get to Akiros and befriend him, and after killing the Stag Lord, they're trying their hardest to recruit his dad (although they don't know that he's the Stag Lord's father).

Anytime they discover that the NPC is cruel and vicious, that's precisely whom they want to recruit.

And really, all that is fine for me. Frankly, they're offering power to people/sentient beings who would likely be willing to accept it. But things like having Auchs be the General, Howl-of-the-North-Wind as the Royal Assassin, and a sadistic old man they found naked in a cellar be Marshal seem a little ridiculous.

I don't want to arbitrarily say that evil cannot cooperate, because that's dumb, but I'd like some good ideas for complications (above and beyond the event rules). The reality is that the party hasn't been capricious, only meting out death to those who (by law) have earned it, or who refused to join them. Nugrah the Decrepit is a good example. After defeating him, they healed him (back to 0 HP, as it turns out), and he used stone shape to retreat into a cocoon of stone (and fall to -1 HP and stabilize there), but they just dug him back out, tied him up, and healed him some more. They have been wholly unsuccessful in their attempts to intimidate him, Charm Person him, and have only slightly moved the meter from Hostile with Diplomacy. But they've told him the Stag Lord is dead (and he doesn't seem like he'd mostly be relieved his son is dead), and they're offering him a chance at a real life (and power) again. Who could turn that down? It seems really dumb to have a second guy turn down the offer because he really just wants to die (Tartuk being the first).

So what should I do (knowing that I am not going to make it unworkably hard to have these guys as leaders)? I don't want to negate the fact that my players really are putting in both the role-playing and skill use to recruit these guys. It's a lot of effort (especially for them), and it makes sense. But still, I'm thinking maybe increasing the DC of any negative events that roll up. I'll definitely have some NPCs refuse to work with others as leaders (but it doesn't look like they're going for any of the standard ones like Oleg or Svetlana anyway, so I'm not sure they'll even notice). Obviously when Grigori shows up, he'll have a field day, although knowing my group, they'll just spin it as him being intolerant of other races like kobolds and worgs and kill him to promote unity within their society. I'm not sure Nugrah will be able to stay loyal, but we'll see.