Reolstan's page

Looking to tap into the collective brain trust for some ideas! (My google-fu hasn't turned up much of interest)

Background:
Traditionally, my gaming group has stuck to the core playable races. For an upcoming campaign I'd like to open things up a little and consider other options for those who want them. Assimars, Tieflings, Changlings, Kitsune, whatever. Templates like lycanthrope are being discussed. All in good fun. So far, this is staying with mostly moderate RP races (nothing over 20), and CR+0 or +1 templates.

Seeking help with:
I'm trying to think up some interesting (and fun/clever) ideas of little boons/gifts/something to grant players who choose races that may have a disadvantage. The player who picks a kobold in a party of assimars & tieflings. Maybe something that scales? An extra level seems kind of flaccid. A bonus trait? feat? something?

What this is not:
3.5 style level adjustments are unlikely, as is anything that takes something away from players. I'm not looking to punish those who want to play more powerful stuff.

captain yesterday wrote:

....have.... have you been playing with my wife :-)

SOOOOOOOOOOooooo not touching that one with a 10' pole!

Hahahaha!

First off I want to say thanks for all the input, everyone!

One thing I'm wondering about is how is this guy's roleplay? Could it be an idea to get him more invested by turning up the RP a notch, and spend a session just RP-ing?

Since this was a brand new group when we first started gaming together, I tried to put some focus on each player to give them a moment in the spotlight. It was pretty clear from that session that he didn't care much for being the center of focus. He gravitates to following along with others' decisions. He's not one for getting heavily invested in character or voices or anything of that nature.

Send me his character sheet and I'll put it in Hero Lab for you and send you the PDFs.

As a professional educator, this sounds like someone with either a strong learning style preference, or difficulty with reading. Possibly something like dyslexia.

1) it's not their fault
2) they're likely trying HARDER than anyone at the table, it just doesn't get them as far.

So a funny thing happened on the way to the market.... I chatted with the player last night, and despite previous discussion to the contrary, he told me he had picked up the trial version of HeroLab and was strongly considering buying at least the core pack. So there it is - much thanks to you Brother Fen for your offer but it looks like we won't need it!

Anonymous Visitor - I don't want to jump to conclusions, but with most things its usually more than one factor. I think you're probably right in that its a strong preference for a specific learning style, or maybe a slight reading issue. My wife has very mild dyslexia that pops up when she's distracted while reading, so I'm somewhat familiar with that. As a group we've tried side-by-side coaching, hands on examples and sessions, targeted reading suggestions... a bunch of different things. Not to say we are skilled educators but we're trying to help. Out of my conversation with him last night it came to light that over the past two weeks he has been re-reading the rules and watching videos of gameplay and such - which to me is fantastic. That's the biggest evidence yet that he's actually trying to learn. I asked him if he needed help with anything and he replied "Nope, I've got it."

I'm speculating, but it's possible that he simply didn't realize how much of a negative impact he was having, and after our discussion last session about it, he's taken steps to actually learn things. We have a session scheduled for this Friday, and I'm hopeful that we will see a new-and-improved player.

You're looking at one of two things here:

1} Inability.
2} Disinterest.

Either this player wants to learn the rules but can't, or they don't want to. Hard to tell.

If it's inability, it'll be an awkward conversation, and the solutions will have to be somewhat driven by the player. They (by 30) have got to have an idea what works and what doesn't for them to learn things. Some people are verbal, some people are visual, etc. If the player admits to having a hard time retaining information, there's hope but they'll have to provide you the clues how to fix it.

if it's disinterest, you've got a discussion on your hands. Some people just show up for beer & pretzels, to hang out with their buddies. The dice and the numbers and the story are really just not important or interesting. You'll have to figure out as a group if that's sustainable.

G'luck.

I'm struggling to figure this out as well. I'm not convinced either way as inconsistent behavior keeps making me rethink. Still, I'm hoping to glean a few ideas from the collective brain trust here and give the benefit of the doubt for the time being.

If we can present a multitude of options and he does nothing with them, then I have my answer.

Of all the problems you can have in a game, this sounds like an entirely minor one. Are you and the rest of your group really so focused on the game running like clockwork that you would kick someone out because the don't always have the details of the rules on top of their head?

You have been given a bit of advice that might help him, and feel free to take that, but my advice is to relax, have fun, enjoy each others company and don't sweat the little stuff like having to explain how rules work now and again.

It is a game. No one will die if someone has to have the rules explained.

No one is requiring that the game "run like clockwork" or "always have the details of the rules on top of their head".

However, You have a legitimate point. I would view this as minor if I were the only one affected.

However, when several players are adversely affected by it to the point that they discuss the problem with me (GM), it should be addressed. I agree that its a game. The objective of the game is to have fun being awesome. When the participants start not having fun, then it becomes an issue that should be resolved before it festers. Simple as that.

Does anyone in the group have any teaching experience? My first instinct is to sit down with him and try to understand exactly what issues he's having with the rules. Is it the terminology he can't remember? Is he having trouble with the math? Is he confusing one power for another? Is he trying to use the 3.5 version of the rules (we call it "versionitis")? Etc.

If he says he's read the rules and still doesn't understand them, telling him to read them again is not going to help. You need to understand where the comprehension block is and work around it. (And I wouldn't jump the conclusion that he has some kind of learning disability: he could very easily have a different learning style than "read this and understand/apply it" (e.g., visual learners and example learners just don't do well with "here, have a book").

If no one in the group has any teaching experience, ask him what kinds of things worked for him in school. Some general techniques (some of which have already been suggested):
1) If it's the math: this is the easiest. Write out all the different iterations and combinations of buffs and powers so he can just find the right line and use that. Another option is a character management tool that you've vetted and help him with leveling up. I use Hero Lab, but there are a bunch of spreadsheets and apps out there.

2) If it's the terminology: also pretty easy. This is where the cheat sheet comes in. If necessary, help him come up with meaningful names or nicknames for the powers that he can remember. For example, it might be easier for him to remember the changes as "I Hulk out" instead of "I activate rage".

3) It it's the application: this is the trickiest. Here, someone will need to sit down with him, go over each of his powers, and give him scenarios in which he would use that power and how it would help him. So instead of "Enforcer lets you make an free demoralize check after you do non-lethal damage", you would need to describe it more like, "If you don't want to kill someone, you can hit...

Side question: how is a barbarian less complicated than a rogue? Recalculating stat bonuses on the fly makes the barbarian one of the more complicated builds. What was it about the rogue that made it "complicated" to him/you?

No professional teaching experience. I have some experience as a collegiate teaching assistant.

I agree with your evaluation 100%, and we've tried many of the approaches suggested already. I absolutely think we could continue to invest more time in tutoring and mentoring. A sheet listing the attack combinations/bonuses. in-game coaching/explaining. side sessions to dedicate more time to helping him understand. These are all very excellent ideas that we are using or have tried/discarded. I'm looking for additional approaches to augment our current ones - I've found that soliciting this information from him has not yielded much.

Herolab is cool, but comes with a cost he is unwilling to invest.

As to your side question: I phrased that statement poorly. He started the game as a rogue who met an unfortunate demise. Now he plays a barbarian. We have so far steered him away from using archetypes, prestige classes, hybrid classes, complex multiclass builds, and spellcasters.

I have a similar player, what we have done for her is actually make a series of cards showing the changes that take place when certain powers are used:

-snip-

Visual aids, very very helpful.

Flash cards are a good idea. I will suggest that. I personally feel we have been very patient and helpful, but I know it's hard to get that impression here. My biggest concern is the time (8 months) coupled with the lack of significant progress. The other two (including the brand-new-never-roleplayed before player) are showing improvement every session.

Honestly, and I'm no expert on this, but it sounds like there may be an underlying learning disability involved here.

Your player is cooperative, experienced, and aware of the generalities of his character's abilities, but it seems like he struggles on retaining the details. Find out his techniques for retaining information while he was in school and use similar techniques. As stated previously, flash cards are a good starting point for most people.

The thought has crossed my mind. Specifically, a reading/comprehension issue. He seems to misinterpret/misunderstand a lot of general instruction that the rest of the group handles fine. That's part of my thinking behind this post - gather up some ideas of different ways to present the rules hoping one method sticks. When I asked him how we could better aid his learning, he merely echoed back suggestions we presented previously.

Does the player have a copy of the CRB, and is it open to the barbarian pages during combat? I think the cue cards could work because they would have only the relevant info, but learning to use the rule book is also important.

Maybe during a combat you could ask the player to look something up for you, such as "Hey would you look up the Acrobatics skill and tell me what the DC is to move through a threatened square?" I'm thinking that looking up something specific could be more helpful than "learn the rules".

Yes he has a copy of the CRB, but no he doesn't typically have it out during the game. I'll definitely try asking him to look something up next session and see what happens. I have asked him to look up his abilities, but that was under time pressure and may have been a bad choice. And while we have said "learn the rules" many, many times - we also have been very specific about what he needs to learn, tailored to his character. When he was a rogue, we pointed directly at flanking rules. As a Barbarian, it has become all about understanding rage and the changes imposed by the rage boosts.

It won't address everything, but consider switching them to the Unchained Barbarian, which is a little easier to follow.

I'd also second adding up all the bonuses and attack options beforehand, and possibly selecting simple Rage Powers. Although it sounds like they were trying to use Animal Fury at the right time at least?

None of us have Unchained yet, but it's on my list of things to get.

When I play a barbarian, I usually have a line each on my character sheet for a regular melee attack, a power attack, a rage attack, and a raging power attack. It makes it really easy.

But I also use a sheet of loose leaf for my character sheet, so it's customized for my character.

I think writing up a loose leaf character sheet really helps with my rules mastery. Also, it's organized the way I want it. Maybe work with your player to make a character sheet that makes sense to him?

I do the same. That's actually what the excel spreadsheet does for him. I'm not sure a custom character sheet would be that much benefit. I think his lack of understanding is far more fundamental. He understands that strength affects fighting, but consistently gets his attack bonus and weapon damage wrong on his character sheet (I catch and correct as I review with him), and that's just exacerbated once we start stacking modifiers (bard song, haste, etc).

What kind of issues is he having with the rules differences? Maybe just make a cheat sheet of how Pathfinder differs from 3.X?

They are pretty similar, he shouldn't have as much trouble you are describing unless he never learned 3.X either...

If he is cooperative, then maybe just gently tell him that he can't argue rules ingame at all (any more than you normally allow)-tell him to make a note of what he doesn't think is right, and email it to you after the game.

Some people say they should be allowed to argue rules that affect whether they live or die, which is fine... if he has a page reference/fast argument that takes fifteen seconds or less, let him voice it.

Your the GM, remind him of that.

Booting a player should always be the last resort.

My apologies if I was unclear in my original post.

There's no problem with rules lawyering or arguing or any confrontation. He is largely cooperative during the game. It simply boils down to not knowing anything during the game. These two examples are indicative of his gameplay *every session*.

Examples:
1. During our last session, for his barbarian, he stated that he wanted to rage at the start of a combat. He then needed a full explanation by another player as to what the Rage ability did, and how it affected his character.

2. At one point, he was being grappled, and wanted to use his rage power: Animal Fury, which resulted in another protracted discussion about what it did.

So, on the surface, it appears he knows enough to recognize that the abilities are generally helpful in certain circumstances. But the details are completely lost on him.

The Setting:
Almost 8 months ago, I sought out and put together a new group for a Rise of the Runelords campaign. For the most part, the six of us were new to gaming with each other. Three had significant pathfinder experience. Two had role-playing experience, some D&D 3.X but not specifically pathfinder. And one was brand-spanking new. We have a regular schedule, playing twice a month. I started with a short intro adventure, to acclimate the group to each other, before going into the meat of the campaign. We leverage a Facebook group and communicate heavily in it. We maintain an adventure log, maps, characters, and wiki in Obsidian Portal. While not without some hiccups (to be expected of a new group), I feel that things are progressing nicely. Everyone has fun, most of the time. This is a relatively drama-free group, and everyone is 30+ with families/lives/jobs/etc.

The Problem:
One of the players with roleplay-but-no-pathfinder experience has not adapted well to the Pathfinder rules. I say this kindly. He claims to have read them but plays as though he has not. He struggles when creating or leveling characters. He is genuinely nice, and I have no conflict regarding anything but his utter failure to understand the basics of the Pathfinder system. This is causing ever-increasing friction during the game and with the other players. If left uncorrected, I fear that it will lead to bad things with the campaign and possibly the group.

Here's what we've done so far

• When we started, I had a quick review of the basic rules.
  
• Then I paired up players for help and questions. one experienced with the new player, and the other experienced with both roleplay-but-no-pathfinder players. Instead of helping, I think this is becoming a crutch for the player in question, as it has resulted in protracted (and distracting) side conversations for several months.
  
• If a rules issue arises during the game, I call it out afterward and post a clarification/link/example to our Facebook group. This has helped the other players.
  
• I meet or text with him one-on-one for rules clarifications and character building and error correction. This is unscheduled but appears to be happening roughly twice a month.
  
• I have, unsolicited, sent him numerous emails and messages with nicely-worded suggestions. I am aware that some of the other players are doing this as well.
  
• He participated in an ad-hoc side adventure designed to help expose the newer players to a representative array of encounters and situations. This was intended to expose a fair portion of the working parts of the Pathfinder system.
  
• I was able to steer him away from complicated character builds. He was a rogue, now a barbarian.
  
• One of the players built for him an excel spreadsheet that will aid in calculating combat modifiers, attack rolls, etc...
  
• Created a level-up checklist for him to use in the hopes of minimizing mistakes.
  
• Directed him towards several class guides to help with leveling ideas, feat selection, etc..
  

Ok, so why the post?
After last session, I approached him and had a lengthy conversation about the effect he is having on the rest of the group. He has promised to read them again and learn them more. This is the second such conversation. Some of you will look to the boot, I am sure, and I am very close myself. But before we do, we want to make sure we have given every opportunity to help him learn, therefore I'm looking for some suggestions on approaches we can take to aid in his understanding of the rules.

Edit: Added some more things we've done to help.

Nohwear - I'm doing almost exactly what you've described. RotR with 5 players, 1 is new to pathfinder but familiar with 3.X, 2 are new to pathfinder/3.x entirely, and 1 is new to gaming. I'm adding a fair bit of side content along with bonus XP for motivational purposes (see below). We've been going strong for about 7 months, just finished Skinsaw / starting Hook Mountain tonight.

Overall, i'd say it's been working pretty well.

The group lags behind the published AP guidelines by roughly 1 level, and that works ( remember the AP was designed for 4). The challenges so far have matched up well. I've been careful to keep that in check with my side content so they don't level too fast. As they have gotten more familiar with the system the extra man has helped a lot in some encounters, and they continue to get better and better as they play.

A suggestion that has worked great for my group: Hero Points work out very well for new players. It gives them a trump card if they make a poor decision for lack of system knowledge. My experienced players rarely use them, and my new players have used them to dodge death about a half a dozen times.(Elyrium, Ripnugget, hermit crab, Xanesha, Scarecrow)

Another thing that for me has worked out well: In addition to learning the system rules, learning the nuances of Golarion lore really helps the setting come alive. In my experience, players hate reading pages and pages of wall-o-text. I've got one that has read the inner sea guide, and everyone else knows virtually nothing. Since we use Obsidian Portal for an adventure log, I add entries to a running forum post little Varisian factoids that most characters would know (What are Shoanti? What's Riddleport? What's the Storval Plateau?). Then later, each log entry comes with a quick question about the world and the answer is always somewhere in one of the posts. First to reply gets a bit of XP/gold/bonus hero points/etc - something good enough to matter but not so much to break the game. At first, I didn't think it would work but it has taken off and now most of them are competing to be the first to respond.

Hope some of this helps. Best of luck!

Jr. Annalist - Add me to the list of people eagerly awaiting the results! Encouragement, for sure!

Love the work.

It depends on the table.

As a player, I'm generally willing to allow any reasonable extrapolation from my backstory in the name of keeping the action moving.

As a result, I tend to create characters which are personalities rather than histories. They just tend to plug into games more easily.

As a GM, I definitely resent players who bring a short novella to the table and then expect me to integrate it. A generous GM might accommodate, but it's a really good habit for players to learn to support the GM passively. It keeps them from burning out.

This. Holy cow this. A player who gives me an interesting background chock full of vague-but-curious hook points will get rewarded with a ton of neat story gems for their character. This means good stuff ( like allies and friends, bonus tidbits of knowledge, etc. ) and bad stuff ( loved ones swept up in the turmoil of the main story, a nemesis, whatever). I love these backgrounds.

Characters who give me 10 pages of detailed back story are a pain. As a GM, you can't integrate them without a ton of work, you get details wrong, the player responds poorly because you didn't get it right, etc.. These players get acknowledgement, and that's about it. [smile-and-nod-slowly]

That said, I never directly modify a player's background. It's their PC - period. I will, however, ASK players to correct mistakes/inconsistencies (you're Varisian on your character sheet, but your background says you were born in Minkai) or request clarification (you want to be drow? why are you on the surface to begin with?).

On a side note, my pet peeve are the character backstories where the players completely ignore the setting (willingly or otherwise).

GM: "Ok guys, we're running Rise of the Runelords next week...."
PC: "My daddy was assistant to Elminster, and I want to be in the Harpers! I was born in Waterdeep!"
GM: "Dude, its in Golarion...."
PC: "wha...?"

In general, 90% of my pet peeves stem from simply not thinking of anyone but oneself. "I want to have fun, so I'm going to do X." The thought that X will make anyone else unhappy/irritated never even crosses their mind. Troublesome characters, nasty DMs, most can fit here.

Outside of the selfishness, here's one I have't seen yet (or maybe just missed): Not being able to die.

I participated in a campaign once where it became apparent to me that no one was going to die. Ever.

To test it out, I started doing some risky behaviours just to see. Simple things, like standing just out of healing range during a fight. Not healing after a battle. Liberal use of charge when faced with multiple enemies. "Forgetting" about AoO.

Eventually, it turned into complete disregard for subtlety, stealth, and surprise. Kicking every door in. Randomly consuming unknown potions and liquid from mysterious altars. Instigating fights. My character became downright suicidal. And still no one ever died, though there was plenty of fudging going on.

And just so you don't think we were being jerks - we did have a conversation with the DM about the problem, not that it did much. Much nodding and hmmm-ing, followed by no change whatsoever.

Easily the most boring campaign I ever played in.

So, did everyone die?

Is Varisia now the land of Karzoug and Leng?

x2! I'm curious to hear how it all turned out!

I wanted to avoid having to run an NPC in the party for 2 reasons. I feel it takes away from the PCs actions and the extra work of running an NPC in the party (especially at high levels).

Have you considered letting a player run/manage the NPC? Or letting the players round-robin the NPC? I've done this before to some success.

Edit: Missed the fact that Latrecis mentioned this as well.

We just had a player drop out and are now down to 3 PCs.

They are 4th level and are about to start chapter 2.

We have a half-orc two-handed fighter, a dwarven cleric who specialises in crafting and a dwarven domain druid who specialises in summoning.

The player who plays the half-orc fighter is planning on taking the leadership feat at 7th level and is going to take a fighter as his cohort but until then do you think with only 3 characters they will be able to complete this part of the AP or should I give them some extra resources or maybe reduce the difficulty of some of the encounters?

I ran this AP for a party of three a while back. They did fine with just 3 players ( Cleric, Barbarian, and Rogue) plus an NPC tag-along (Sorcerer). I informed them ahead of time that I wasn't adjusting anything, and they played smart.

Still, you have plenty of options:

Noir le Lotus has a great idea in having Shalelu help out.

Depending on what happened in Thistletop with your group, Orik might be an option.

It's been discussed elsewhere, but you might consider granting Leadership as a free feat. Linky.

Hope this helps!

Not to necro, but I'm wondering if there's anyone out there who ever used this. I know of a couple of people, but I'm curious if there are more.

Doug M.

Definitely looking at this as a nice little extension for Lyrie. I've run RotR before, for a different group, and they let her live. Running it again for a new group that was interested in trying it, and I have a feeling they will as well. Looks great!

I'm running a low-magic campaign for my crew, and I can say it certainly makes you think a bit more as you are building your adventures. Initially, I spent a bit of time doing some research on different approaches and ideas - these boards are great for that. Do a little legwork now and it will save you a lot of problems down the line.

Ultimately, what you do will depend on what your players will like and what you are comfortable doing. For my campaign, I am combining a number of different approaches to keep everything on an even keel.

First, I instituted a more robust system for "masterwork" items. For example, Masterwork weapons can give you the standard attack bonus, some give a damage bonus, some are extra light (weight reduction), some are harder to break, etc.. You can stack masterwork "traits" on a given weapon, but it gets more expensive the more you tack on. I have the same concept for armor and mundane items, like clothing.

Second, I made available (at specific levels) the various manuals that give stat bonuses. (i.e. Manual of Bodily Health).

Third, I have given out magic items, but I have a standing rule that no "generic" magic items exist. So no Magic Longsword +1. Instead, I treat most magic items like artifacts/relics/etc... They have names and typically do something other than the +1 to attack and damage thing. This means that when they do get a magic weapon, its generally better than the MW variety. The players seem to have enjoyed this change.

Fourth, I have done some monster tweaking, as mentioned above. Paying attention to DR, SR, etc... The upside to this is that opponents don't have the magic items either, which helps for npcs and such.

The beauty of this is that it allows some nice fine-grained tuning as you go along, if you realize that your players are more/less powerful than you want them to be (or they need to be). It gives you a couple different dimensions to toy with, and can help keep the players feeling like they are getting more powerful as they level.

The downside of this is that it is not a simple, single change that will "fix" the low magic problem. It takes some work, which means it isn't a solution for everyone. But it has worked well in my game so far. Like all things, your mileage may vary.

Two years ago, for my annual group Christmas gift exchange, I handed out personalized Crown Royal bags. Everyone got one with their name on it.

Partly because I thought it would be neat for each member to have their own bag, and partly because I was tired of grabbing the wrong one >_<

We also have one over-shadowing character (although that sort of thing has never bothered us).

In general, I would have to agree with that. I have never minded being second-best or third-best or even absolutely terrible at combat - as long as I was playing a character that was a valuable part of the group dynamic.

I'm tempted to attack everything you say just out of natural instinct but since your being extremely reasonable I guess I got not grounds and will be forced to hold my peace.

But isn't that what you're supposed to do on a forum? /laugh

Now I'm curious, Reolstan. Is this evolution due partially to the systems, the DMs, the players, or a little of everything?

Now that is a can of worms.

The simple answer? A little bit of everything.

Another thought - mileage may vary based on your group:

A good campaign is contagious. Sometimes all it takes is one or two players to become passionate about a story/character/setting, and that excitement can ripple though the rest of the group.

I know the OP mentioned canceling the game, and maybe dropping the group entirely. But one option might be to just do a little thing with one or two of the more interested players, without the rest. Then you can add returning members or new members as appropriate.

A few years back, my group reached a similar point. Then three of us got together on an evening where the rest of the group was busy doing one thing or another. That one-shot became so popular that it grew into a multi-year campaign involving everyone. And it all started with a pair of dwarf brothers.

In any case, Good luck !

So now I'm trying to appreciate each system for what it is.

As am I. I can say that initially I was very excited about 4e, but over the past two years (ish), that excitement has died off. In fact, I can say I'm not a big fan of it at this point, but several of the other members of my group are, and so I hang in there. One of them likes it so much that he won't consider playing PRPG (which isn't a big deal, he's the one who has spotty availability, so it works out well.)

What I've started to see is that my PRPG campaign has become the gritty, low magic campaign with lots of role playing. The 4e campaign (run by another DM) is the high-powered, uber magic, extremely combat heavy campaign (with not a lot of rp - we spend an insane amount of time in combat). I know that has a lot to do with DM style and all, but I think its a good thing. Sometimes you want your mindless summertime action flick, and sometimes you want something with a little more substance.

Appreciate the perspective.

My gaming group made the switch to 4E when it was released, and have been playing it ever since. Due to inconsistent availability of one particular player, we all agreed to start a side campaign to keep us busy on the "off" nights. I recently picked up Pathfinder, and managed to convince everyone to give it a shot. We've had a few sessions and things are moving along nicely.

I was curious to see - how many out there play both PF and 4E side by side? If so, have you run into any issues?

Thanks!